Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[T-dubz]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

So basically you're suggesting remove just about everything that makes it Bronco and then it'll be good haha.

It’s not removing anything, only making it optional. And there is a precedent because the bronco II was RWD. And really the bronco sport is the spiritual successor to the second gen escape anyways.

[ExplorerDude]

This article is stretching it a bit. Farley’s comments were taken out of context as well.

 

Yes both Edge and Transit Connect are going away unfortunately. Hard to believe considering how popular they were when they were introduced. 
 

Escape as we know it is going away, no more ICE powered Escape. I don’t remember when the plan changed but the replacement is expected to be a BEV and I heard it would use the Escape name. Supposedly to come from LAP.

 

Farley just shouldn’t comment on existing product plans as his words get twisted or the press doesn’t have clarity in what he’s actually stating. He said no more 2 row ICE crossovers as the segments have become commoditized.

[BoomerSooner]

Am I the only one who believes a 250 mile range (see: Mach-E base powertrain) qualifies as a "toy" and a 310 mile range (see: Mach-E with $7,000 extended range battery) is is mostly annoying? I had a 1998 Mercury Mystique V6/5-speed that barely eked out a 300 mile range and found it enormously inconvenient for my use (frequent fuel stops). If Ford is going to force us go EV (or, well, to another manufacturer), shouldn't we be seeing some dramatic improvements to the erstwhile staid progress of the Mach-E? 

[Rangers09]

13 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I'd argue the maverick is more flexible than the escape, as it has a pretty decently sized interior with the open cargo space. I assume that your f-450 takes on pretty heavy truck duty, hence why you have an f-450 in the first place. But if you're ever in a position where you don't really need to tow anything super heavy anymore, I highly recommend the maverick. Ours replaced a Kia Rio, best decision ever, it's basically two cars in one for half the price of many modern cars. 

 

Affirmative on towing, as we have a 16,500 lb 5th wheel, hence the F-450.

 

With respect to the Escape, I like the flexibility of folding the 1/3 and 2/3 rear seats down depending on how many pax and how much we have in the back. It is also so much easier to access and stow stuff in the back than the F-450. Although I suspect the Maverick is much easier to access the cargo area than the F-450. In the Escape, I also don't need a cover to keep everything secure and dry, just close the rear door.

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, ExplorerDude said:

Farley just shouldn’t comment on existing product plans as his words get twisted or the press doesn’t have clarity in what he’s actually stating. He said no more 2 row ICE crossovers as the segments have become commoditized.

He’s still better than the word salad that was a Jim Hackett presentation but he does tend to get a little wordy with his responses and that’s where the confusion usually happens. 

[Joe771476]

Can't they just make an Escape and Edge EV?  And why are they even throwing money at EV;s? Ford will soon be so broke, a foreign company will scoop them up and there will be no more Ford. Sounds like sabotage to me. But what can you expect from a company who dropped the Taurus?

[Donaldo]

18 hours ago, Deanh said:

one only needs to check when New York uyilized hybrid Escapes as Taxis...apparently some of the mileages were unreal..

 

To be fair those were a different chassis and drivetrain with Japanese battery packs and transmissions. 

[rperez817]

5 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

Can't they just make an Escape and Edge EV?  And why are they even throwing money at EV;s? 

 

Ford can retain the Escape and Edge nameplates if it so chooses, but any future BEV versions of those products need to be distinctive. The current ICE (including hybrid) versions of Escape and Edge simply get lost in the sea of boring 2-row crossovers.

 

As for why Ford is throwing money at EVs, it's because Ford wants to survive as an automaker past 2025.

[Deanh]

15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford can retain the Escape and Edge nameplates if it so chooses, but any future BEV versions of those products need to be distinctive. The current ICE (including hybrid) versions of Escape and Edge simply get lost in the sea of boring 2-row crossovers.

 

As for why Ford is throwing money at EVs, it's because Ford wants to survive as an automaker past 2025.

got news for you...if WONT survive hemmoraging money with EVs like they are now, theyve even said so themselves... SMART conservative Automakers that dont cater to Govt and Media hyperbole, such as Toyota, will soldier on...one needs a broad portfolio to survive along with smart decisions...Fords decisions regarding BEVS have been questionable to say the least...

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

if WONT survive hemmoraging money with EVs like they are now, theyve even said so themselves... 

 

Ford CFO John Lawler said that Model e division should be thought of as a startup, which is absolutely correct.

 

As everyone knows, EV startups lose money while they invest in capability, develop knowledge, build (sales) volume and gain (market) share

 

Investing in capability, developing knowledge, building sales volume, and gaining market share is what Ford Model e should be and is doing nowadays. That's what will position Ford for success in an automotive industry future in which 100% electric vehicles is one key component.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

got news for you...if WONT survive hemmoraging money with EVs like they are now, theyve even said so themselves... SMART conservative Automakers that dont cater to Govt and Media hyperbole, such as Toyota, will soldier on...one needs a broad portfolio to survive along with smart decisions...Fords decisions regarding BEVS have been questionable to say the least...

Come on Dean you’re smarter than that.  The reason they’re losing so much is because they’re building BOC and getting ready to convert Oakville and possibly Louisville.  Those are one time startup costs.

 

I will also guess that Escape, Edge and TC were contributing very little to Blue’s profitability.  I bet the savings from repurposing Louisville and Oakville as opposed to keeping them and building new BEV factories will far outweigh any lost profits.

[Deanh]

28 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford CFO John Lawler said that Model e division should be thought of as a startup, which is absolutely correct.

 

 

 

 

Investing in capability, developing knowledge, building sales volume, and gaining market share is what Ford Model e should be and is doing nowadays. That's what will position Ford for success in an automotive industry future in which 100% electric vehicles is one key component.

and the question being avoided is , is this type of loss sustainable when the hype is also quelling at an accelerated rate...the demand isnt going to rebound for years...if at all...BEVs could literally go away if their business case makes no financial sense OR force manufacturers into bancruptcy ( which some BEV manufacturers have already done )  I still veiw them ( BEVs ) as a "novelty" that rode the wave of "trendy' and "environmentally friendly " and now that hype has died down significantly...it would not surprize me if BEVs become just a small "niche "  part of the Automobile industry until someone figures out to make them affordable for the middle class and below. Because without GOVT intervention Im not quite sure they would exist at all. And the whloe carbon footprint bull$hit being utilized as propoganda...is exactly that...total BS...and I wont mention their practical limitations...

[Deanh]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

Come on Dean you’re smarter than that.  The reason they’re losing so much is because they’re building BOC and getting ready to convert Oakville and possibly Louisville.  Those are one time startup costs.

 

I will also guess that Escape, Edge and TC were contributing very little to Blue’s profitability.  I bet the savings from repurposing Louisville and Oakville as opposed to keeping them and building new BEV factories will far outweigh any lost profits.

point is they went in full steam, and now they are coming to their senses somewhat...they should have taken their time...I think its ultimately going to hurt them big time, so expect some dramatic layoffs to counter losses...watch the $hit hit the fan with the UAW when that starts going down...popcorn please...

[DeluxeStang]

6 hours ago, ExplorerDude said:

This article is stretching it a bit. Farley’s comments were taken out of context as well.

 

Yes both Edge and Transit Connect are going away unfortunately. Hard to believe considering how popular they were when they were introduced. 
 

Escape as we know it is going away, no more ICE powered Escape. I don’t remember when the plan changed but the replacement is expected to be a BEV and I heard it would use the Escape name. Supposedly to come from LAP.

 

Farley just shouldn’t comment on existing product plans as his words get twisted or the press doesn’t have clarity in what he’s actually stating. He said no more 2 row ICE crossovers as the segments have become commoditized.

So is the second gen mach-e expected to take the place of the edge in terms of size and pricing? Let's hope by moving to these new ev platforms, they're able to make the next mach-e much cheaper if that's the case. It's gonna be a hard sell otherwise.

 

Perhaps that's why we're hearing about two mach-e body styles. The coupe may remain as the traditional mach-e shape, and the normal mach-e might grow to have a boxier profile to increase practicality in order to draw in more edge owners. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[Deanh]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

Come on Dean you’re smarter than that.  The reason they’re losing so much is because they’re building BOC and getting ready to convert Oakville and possibly Louisville.  Those are one time startup costs.

 

I will also guess that Escape, Edge and TC were contributing very little to Blue’s profitability.  I bet the savings from repurposing Louisville and Oakville as opposed to keeping them and building new BEV factories will far outweigh any lost profits.

the n$ they are losing isnt just because of BOC and plant upgrades...its literally costing them money to sell the BEVs...that may change with volume...but will that volume actually be there when demand on BEVs is not on the uptick...anything but...its literally almost becoming desperation to sell the things...up until yesterday we had 3k and 1.9 for 60 months....Granted sales are cyclical as is desire...but losing money AND subsidizing to counter slow sales doesnt fill me full of confidence in the slightest...

[Deanh]

15 minutes ago, akirby said:

Come on Dean you’re smarter than that.  The reason they’re losing so much is because they’re building BOC and getting ready to convert Oakville and possibly Louisville.  Those are one time startup costs.

 

I will also guess that Escape, Edge and TC were contributing very little to Blue’s profitability.  I bet the savings from repurposing Louisville and Oakville as opposed to keeping them and building new BEV factories will far outweigh any lost profits.

Agreed on the Escape/ Edge and TC...but not sure replacing them in the manner rumored is the correct avenue  ( at least financially ) to take. The Connect could have been made here and literally OWNED that market...and I think Ford mised the boat there, a TC with a choice of Hybrid and BEV drivetrains is something Ive scratched my head about a lot. Escape, we need something in that market to compete withe the RAVs and CRVs, Rogues...again..MIXTURE of drivetrains..you cant have all your eggs in one basket...let the market and consumer decide  which drivetrain they want...you only give one option youre playing with fire...and your also alienating a large group of potential buyers....

[rperez817]

21 minutes ago, Deanh said:

is this type of loss sustainable when the hype is also quelling at an accelerated rate..

 

What do you mean by "the hype is also quelling at an accelerated rate?" The Ford+ strategy involving BEV isn't based on hype. Ford's 2023 Integrated Sustainability and Financial Report states the following. Helping Build a Better World (ford.com)

 

The demand for EVs is real – and growing. For the first time, the majority  of consumers who intend to buy a car in the next two years say they will choose an EV or hybrid vehicle, up 11% from 2021 and 22% from 2020, according to research published by EY. Most of that increase in demand is for full EVs, and we are ready for them. Our electric vehicle strategy is to play to our strengths and deliver an appealing lineup of iconic nameplates that our customers love and value. We are focused on higher volumes and lower complexity to achieve scale and maximize margins per vehicle.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

He’s still better than the word salad that was a Jim Hackett presentation but he does tend to get a little wordy with his responses and that’s where the confusion usually happens. 

Plus, as much as I love Farley's passion and genuine nature, there are times where he sounds like a boomer who just learned what these words are five minutes ago. He feels the need to jam software discussions into every interview he does and it always feels like he's getting it 80% right at best in terms of how he's describing it. 

[ExplorerDude]

25 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Agreed on the Escape/ Edge and TC...but not sure replacing them in the manner rumored is the correct avenue  ( at least financially ) to take. The Connect could have been made here and literally OWNED that market...and I think Ford mised the boat there, a TC with a choice of Hybrid and BEV drivetrains is something Ive scratched my head about a lot. Escape, we need something in that market to compete withe the RAVs and CRVs, Rogues...again..MIXTURE of drivetrains..you cant have all your eggs in one basket...let the market and consumer decide  which drivetrain they want...you only give one option youre playing with fire...and your also alienating a large group of potential buyers....

There were plans for a brand-new Transit Connect to be built on C2 and alongside the Bronco Sport and Maverick in Hermosillo. When Ford realized the profitability and high demand of the Bronco Sport and Maverick, it shelved the next Transit Connect. It would’ve been a hit but the volume and what they’d make on it weren’t worth it, they didn’t want the risk of sacrificing any Bronco Sports or Mavericks.

Edited September 1, 2023 by ExplorerDude

[Deanh]

12 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

What do you mean by "the hype is also quelling at an accelerated rate?" The Ford+ strategy involving BEV isn't based on hype. Ford's 2023 Integrated Sustainability and Financial Report states the following. Helping Build a Better World (ford.com)

 

 

 

the lines and waiting lists are GONE and have been for some time...Demand is also in the doldrums and units are literally sitting on lots gathering dust and just adding to flooring lines...and the very reasons they are now getting incentives and subveened rates is exactly what I just explained...I just hope for Fords sake, BEVS arent a "one hit wonder"......they sure went from hero to zero pretty quick because, and will they survive because they definitely make no financial sense at the moment, that may/ may not change with new technology, but range isnt the only bug bear is it?....long term, from Fords standpoint,  obviously theres no turning back...but its sure looking gloomy....

[Deanh]

5 minutes ago, ExplorerDude said:

There were plans for a brand-new Transit Connect to be built on C2 and alongside the Bronco Sport and Maverick in Hermosillo. When Ford realized the profitability and high demand of the Bronco Sport and Maverick, it shelved the next Transit Connect. It would’ve been a hit but the volume and what they’d make on it were worth sacrificing any Bronco Sport or Mavericks over.

questionable call because Im not exactly sure how profitable the BS and Maverick are...and theres a definite consistancy to Commercial sales...(  cant say that about the 7 passenger Transit Connect..specifically cargo vans )

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

got news for you...if WONT survive hemmoraging money with EVs like they are now, theyve even said so themselves... SMART conservative Automakers that dont cater to Govt and Media hyperbole, such as Toyota, will soldier on...one needs a broad portfolio to survive along with smart decisions...Fords decisions regarding BEVS have been questionable to say the least...

Ford's losses on EVs currently are being offset by the profits generated from their ICE products. The shift to more streamline platforms, and the decision to increase the amount of parts sharing should contribute to significant profits in the future. All businesses are operating at a loss when they initially invest money, that's why so many small businesses fail. It takes time to break even, and eventually profit off those investments, years usually, just have patience.

 

Five years from now, Ford's EVs will be generating billions of dollars of profit, mark my words. 

[Deanh]

29 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Ford's losses on EVs currently are being offset by the profits generated from their ICE products. The shift to more streamline platforms, and the decision to increase the amount of parts sharing should contribute to significant profits in the future. All businesses are operating at a loss when they initially invest money, that's why so many small businesses fail. It takes time to break even, and eventually profit off those investments, years usually, just have patience.

 

Five years from now, Ford's EVs will be generating billions of dollars of profit, mark my words. 

and THATS the elephant in the room...without ICE electric wouldnt survive...youre saying it will in the future...Im not so convinced...and the multitude of problems regarding BEVs are literally JUST starting to surface...problems a majority wont tolerate, so consequently demand will continue to decline when those issues become more public knowledge ( that statement IS speculation, but knowing some of the issues and demands people have to tolerate if they do go electric, I personally think there will be an awful lot of rejection ) and ICE will soldier on.....thats said, I think BEV has its place, but itrs a very small place, and the fact its being forced upon consumers isnt kosher. And I for one dont want to become dependent on an Electric Company for my livelihood, wellbeing and life style choices. .

Edited September 1, 2023 by Deanh

[T-dubz]

My small country dealer has 11 mach e’s sitting on the lot and 6 more in transit. Per cargurus.com I have 197 mach e’s within 50 miles of me. Of those, 20 have been sitting for 100+ days, 95 have been sitting for 50 or more days.

 

For reference, here is the count of other ford models within 50 miles:

174 explorers

139 escapes

88 broncos

174 bronco sports

906 f150s

 

 

[akirby]

7 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

My small country dealer has 11 mach e’s sitting on the lot and 6 more in transit. Per cargurus.com I have 197 mach e’s within 50 miles of me. Of those, 20 have been sitting for 100+ days, 95 have been sitting for 50 or more days.

 

For reference, here is the count of other ford models within 50 miles:

174 explorers

139 escapes

88 broncos

174 bronco sports

906 f150s

 

 

Nobody wants the std range models.  They sold 4000 last month.