Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[Deanh]

15 minutes ago, akirby said:

Nobody wants the std range models.  They sold 4000 last month.

Irony is thats what we are selling the most of...strange...but I think most are basically grocery getters...weve also had people trading them ( or attempting to, but once they see what the trade value is that changes ) because they bought the car not knowing limitations...one being they didnt have a garage which is common here, another being they live in a rental Apartment where they are stuck with 110 at the most and wont pony up for a charger on someone elses property....

Edited September 1, 2023 by Deanh

[joseodiaga4]

8 hours ago, ExplorerDude said:

This article is stretching it a bit. Farley’s comments were taken out of context as well.

 

Yes both Edge and Transit Connect are going away unfortunately. Hard to believe considering how popular they were when they were introduced. 
 

Escape as we know it is going away, no more ICE powered Escape. I don’t remember when the plan changed but the replacement is expected to be a BEV and I heard it would use the Escape name. Supposedly to come from LAP.

 

Farley just shouldn’t comment on existing product plans as his words get twisted or the press doesn’t have clarity in what he’s actually stating. He said no more 2 row ICE crossovers as the segments have become commoditized.

but the question is why does Ford plan to leave this segments while everyone else stay. I mean, we've heard a lot of that "commoditized segments" and each time Ford plans to get out of them.

Also, one day they say they will kill the ICE vehicles, the next day that EV adoption is slow.........if this is true, why leave the segments where you participate 

[Andrew L]

47 minutes ago, joseodiaga4 said:

but the question is why does Ford plan to leave this segments while everyone else stay. I mean, we've heard a lot of that "commoditized segments" and each time Ford plans to get out of them.

Also, one day they say they will kill the ICE vehicles, the next day that EV adoption is slow.........if this is true, why leave the segments where you participate 

 

Personally speaking I hate that Ford has left so many segments and plans to leave more while other companies have figured it out and keep it going example being the mid size sedan market.  I get it, it's been beaten to death but how can Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia all stay in that race but Ford had to pull out?  It's not even like the Fusion was selling poorly it was still holding its own.  It was in need of an update but with it being also sold elsewhere as the Mondeo was it REALLY that much of a money loser?  Also I wonder what ever happened to that rumor of bringing the Mondeo Wagon here to the US and raising it up to be an Outback competitor.  It honestly wouldn't be a horrible move the Subaru Outback still sells really well.

 

Obviously I don't know all of Ford's financials but from the outside looking in, it's almost like Ford is running away with their tail between their legs from certain segments they are not dominant in.

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

Personally speaking I hate that Ford has left so many segments and plans to leave more while other companies have figured it out and keep it going example being the mid size sedan market.  I get it, it's been beaten to death but how can Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia all stay in that race but Ford had to pull out?  It's not even like the Fusion was selling poorly it was still holding its own.  It was in need of an update but with it being also sold elsewhere as the Mondeo was it REALLY that much of a money loser?  Also I wonder what ever happened to that rumor of bringing the Mondeo Wagon here to the US and raising it up to be an Outback competitor.  It honestly wouldn't be a horrible move the Subaru Outback still sells really well.

 

Obviously I don't know all of Ford's financials but from the outside looking in, it's almost like Ford is running away with their tail between their legs from certain segments they are not dominant in.

Rumour was they were going to kill everything off barring the Electric Transit.....because that vehicle is KILLING it.......

[jpd80]

12 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Rumour was they were going to kill everything off barring the Electric Transit.....because that vehicle is KILLING it.......

Truth to tell, outside of F Series, Ranger/Bronco and Transit, most of what Ford sells are in fact commodity products that are  barely more than development and manufacturing costs, most are therefore something for dealerships to service and sell parts.

Edited September 1, 2023 by jpd80

[Andrew L]

6 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Truth to tell, outside of F Series, Ranger/Bronco and Transit, most of what Ford sells are in fact commodity products that are  barely more than development and manufacturing costs, most are therefore something for dealerships to service and sell parts.

 

A bit hyperbolic but is the goal to shrink down Ford to just those models and the Mustang?

 

Does ford know how to chew bubblegum and walk at the same time?

[jpd80]

6 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

A bit hyperbolic but is the goal to shrink down Ford to just those models and the Mustang?

 

Does ford know how to chew bubblegum and walk at the same time?

That’s a good question but judging by Ford’s desire to cut  models that it considers “commodities”,

the more profitable utilities that replaced cars are now themselves considered commodities.

Funny thing is Ford is killing Escape while Toyota RAV4 sales are so strong and profitable….

 

Make less and charge more has been the Ford Mantra for the last decade and a half,

so much that Ford is now uncompetitive because it doesn’t want to compete.

[rperez817]

16 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Ford is now uncompetitive because it doesn’t want to compete.

 

Maybe Ford realized that it's one thing to compete, but quite another to win a competition. As such, should Ford focus on the areas it has a high likelihood of winning, the company should be in good shape. Ford Escape and to a lesser extent Edge and Transit Connect in the U.S. market are examples of Ford entering a competition, but not following through to win. By contrast, F-150 Lightning and to a lesser extent Mustang Mach-E represents an all-out commitment to win.

 

This goes back to what Ford said in its annual report on how it plans to win with BEV.

Quote

Our electric vehicle strategy is to play to our strengths and deliver an appealing lineup of iconic nameplates that our customers love and value

Edited September 2, 2023 by rperez817

[mpcmotorsports]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:23 AM, akirby said:

I agree it doesn’t make sense to me right now but if it’s true they’re killing Escape then it stands to reason they’ll kill Corsair as well - and maybe that’s why Corsair wasn’t updated.  Which means they’re converting Louisville to BEV production.

 

On the bright side this should free up hybrid powertrains for Bronco Sport and Maverick.  And it would explain not moving Nautilus to Louisville.

 

But it makes me really nervous about Lincoln’s future.

Corsair was updated for 2023. Mild refresh on front fascia, interior upgrades including Sync 4 and BlueCruise and digital IC on all trims. They are in short supply and we can't keep them on the lot at the dealership I work at.

[T-dubz]

Edge seems to be selling fairly well and it’s older than dirt. Why couldn’t ford throw a new exterior and interior on it and call it a day? As long as it looks new and has the latest tech on the inside, it’d probably do well. Isn’t that essentially what Toyota has done with the Camry for years, and Nissan with the frontier?

[jpd80]

30 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Maybe Ford realized that it's one thing to compete, but quite another to win a competition. As such, if Ford focus on the areas it has a high likelihood of winning, the company should be in good shape. Ford Escape and to a lesser extent Edge and Transit Connect in the U.S. market are examples of Ford entering a competition, but not following through to win. By contrast, F-150 Lightning and to a lesser extent Mustang Mach-E represents an all-out commitment to win.

With respect, no those vehicles aren’t a commitment to win, one was a costly rescue plan and the other was adding batteries and electric motors to an existing F150 product, neither of those are a 100% commitment, not when next generation versions ar on the way, not when Ford is pumping the brakes on BEV ramp up.

 

Quote

 

This goes back to what Ford said in its annual report on how it plans to win with BEV.

 

Ford says a lot of things that sound good but really, they are governed by the wants and needs of customers,

start offering products that buyers don’t want and see what happens…

Edited September 1, 2023 by jpd80
Typos fro autotext

[jpd80]

13 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Edge seems to be selling fairly well and it’s older than dirt. Why couldn’t ford throw a new exterior and interior on it and call it a day? As long as it looks new and has the latest tech on the inside, it’d probably do well. Isn’t that essentially what Toyota has done with the Camry for years, and Nissan with the frontier?

The plan to end Edge was done years ago when Ford thought it would have plenty of BEVs coming in and around that size, I think the chiefs had an oh well moment when Mach E failed to attract the volume of sales promised and VW MEB based vehicles were ditched for Oakville and something else was assigned there….

Edited September 1, 2023 by jpd80
Adding comment

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

Personally speaking I hate that Ford has left so many segments and plans to leave more while other companies have figured it out and keep it going example being the mid size sedan market.  I get it, it's been beaten to death but how can Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia all stay in that race but Ford had to pull out?  It's not even like the Fusion was selling poorly it was still holding its own.  It was in need of an update but with it being also sold elsewhere as the Mondeo was it REALLY that much of a money loser?  Also I wonder what ever happened to that rumor of bringing the Mondeo Wagon here to the US and raising it up to be an Outback competitor.  It honestly wouldn't be a horrible move the Subaru Outback still sells really well.

 

Obviously I don't know all of Ford's financials but from the outside looking in, it's almost like Ford is running away with their tail between their legs from certain segments they are not dominant in.

To be fair, all the brands you mentioned are killing off sedans and hatchbacks for the N. American market. Honda stopped setting the fit here, and rumors occasionally pop up about the Accord being discontinued. Nissan is pulling the Altima out of N. America, announced this week. Kia and Hyundai are pulling out, and Toyota stopped selling the yaris here, with additional rumors than the Camry might turn into a CUV if the sedan segment keeps declining.

 

As for the Ford outback rival, I heard good things about it, seems like the project has been either delayed or canceled. Maybe they plan to make it one of their EVs so delayed it for a few years to reengineer it, or something like that. 

[jpd80]

Sorry guys, to me it looks like Ford is constantly avoiding doing anything with Ford Blue products exactly because they ripped the guts out of product development funding a few years ago ($11 billion), so now everyone is scratching their heads and wondering where are all the products going….

It just seemed like funding future BEVs came at a hell of a cost with ford losing focus on transitional products to get them to a point where BEVs would take over. Merging Escape and Edge onto one new C2 vehicle would have been a good move to give Bronco Sport more product space but I get why that wasn’t done, it just seems such a wasted opportunity to concise the range and maximise sales on fewer vehicle types.

Edited September 1, 2023 by jpd80
Typos, grammar

[ExplorerDude]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

A bit hyperbolic but is the goal to shrink down Ford to just those models and the Mustang?

 

Does ford know how to chew bubblegum and walk at the same time?

To be honest, it’s horrifying to watch so many knee-jerk reaction decisions. There are days where many feel like they are just guessing on what to do. It’s very worrisome that there is a major lack of a sense of urgency on a lot of things.

 

Honestly, Mulally was so right about everything with the company lacking focus,  and it’s even more so like that now than ever before, even with just the Ford and Lincoln brands. For whatever reason Ford can’t stay focused and manage multiple things at once. 
 

The company gets bored when there isn’t any “danger” like it was 2006-2008. To sum up, you are correct, the company can’t chew gum and walk at the same time. 

[jpd80]

9 minutes ago, ExplorerDude said:

To be honest, it’s horrifying to watch so many knee-jerk reaction decisions. There are days where many feel like they are just guessing on what to do. It’s very worrisome that there is a major lack of a sense of urgency on a lot of things.

 

Honestly, Mulally was so right about everything with the company lacking focus,  and it’s even more so like that now than ever before, even with just the Ford and Lincoln brands. For whatever reason Ford can’t stay focused and manage multiple things at once. 
 

The company gets bored when there isn’t any “danger” like it was 2006-2008. To sum up, you are correct, the company can’t chew gum and walk at the same time. 

It’s like a couple of dealers told me way back, Ford releases a new product and supports it strongly for the first twelve months or so but if it doesn’t perform, it is then quietly dropped, advertising and promotion cut, deserted to languish on dealers lots to clear away with final payment incentives.

 

Distraction is Ford’s biggest enemy, it sees other companies do something and feels like it must compete whatever the cost. An when Bill Ford weighs in with pushing BEVs, it’s a really bad combination 

Edited September 1, 2023 by jpd80
Added comment

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Andrew L said:

 

Personally speaking I hate that Ford has left so many segments and plans to leave more while other companies have figured it out and keep it going example being the mid size sedan market.  I get it, it's been beaten to death but how can Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia all stay in that race but Ford had to pull out?  It's not even like the Fusion was selling poorly it was still holding its own.  It was in need of an update but with it being also sold elsewhere as the Mondeo was it REALLY that much of a money loser? 

Not sure why this is so hard to understand or why it has to be repeated so often, but if they kept Fusion and Focus we would have no Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport or Maverick.  All vehicles with much higher prices and little to no direct competition.  The only way would have been to build at least 1 if not 2 factories and there wasn’t enough profit in those cars to come close to covering that cost.  Other mfrs especially Asians have a much larger global market for their cars and they don’t have full sized trucks and SUVs and commercial vehicles like Ford.  Each mfr has different strengths and weaknesses and Ford is simply choosing to play to their strengths just like the others do.  
 

My earlier point about the other mfrs not having competitors for thing like F series, Expedition, Bronco and Mustang was trying to point out that what works for one mfr doesn’t work as well for others based on history, customer base, institutional knowledge and engineering expertise not to mention manufacturing infrastructure.  
 

So the answer to why did Ford choose to kill Fusion is the same answer as why doesn’t Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia or VW make a full sized pickup or Bronco or Expedition.

[silvrsvt]

Let me lead this off this comment:

 

“‘If it bleeds it leads,’ is how reporting on EVs works,” says Sam Fiorani, vice president of Global Vehicle Forecasting for AutoForecast Solutions.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a44938407/battery-electric-vehicle-car-fires/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_aut&utm_medium=email&date=082923&utm_campaign=nl32547055&user_email=7b389c2f374fcffffe4f64d9c0f0bafaca6dc835c57d84a273199feaedea3782&GID=7b389c2f374fcffffe4f64d9c0f0bafaca6dc835c57d84a273199feaedea3782&utm_term=TEST- NEW TEST - Sending List - AM 180D Clicks%2C NON AM 90D Opens%2C Both Subbed Last 30D

 

Then as for the charge towards EV and the press saying Ford is pumping the brakes on them when they are just going to introduce new products that currently don't have them or use them in a different way-you have this:

The new standards will increase fuel efficiency 8% annually for model years 2024-2025 and 10% annually for model year 2026. They will also increase the estimated fleetwide average by nearly 10 miles per gallon for model year 2026, relative to model year 2021.

 

From: https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026#:~:text=The new standards will increase,relative to model year 2021.

 

The Mach E issues are from not having any production (to increase it) at the start of the year to having "too much" product now at a time when Tax breaks and other things might have expired, coupled with higher interests rates and people panicking about the economy or having second thoughts about large purchases. The add in the incendiary reporting about it (see first quote) and all of sudden the sky is falling...

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Not sure why this is so hard to understand or why it has to be repeated so often, but if they kept Fusion and Focus we would have no Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport or Maverick.  All vehicles with much higher prices and little to no direct competition.  The only way would have been to build at least 1 if not 2 factories and there wasn’t enough profit in those cars to come close to covering that cost.  Other mfrs especially Asians have a much larger global market for their cars and they don’t have full sized trucks and SUVs and commercial vehicles like Ford.  Each mfr has different strengths and weaknesses and Ford is simply choosing to play to their strengths just like the others do.  
 

My earlier point about the other mfrs not having competitors for thing like F series, Expedition, Bronco and Mustang was trying to point out that what works for one mfr doesn’t work as well for others based on history, customer base, institutional knowledge and engineering expertise not to mention manufacturing infrastructure.  
 

So the answer to why did Ford choose to kill Fusion is the same answer as why doesn’t Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia or VW make a full sized pickup or Bronco or Expedition.

I like the way you think with regards product choices.

The space occupied by particular vehicles can actually deny other manufacturers an opportunity to sell a competitive vehicle. If VW or Nissan tried to sell a full sized truck, the numbers would probably be bad because ther are already at least six other established and better recognised full sized trucks in front of them. 
 

I get why sedans went away as they became low profit vehicles with loads of competition, their utility replacements have now sadly come to the same conclusion because every car maker decided to have compact and mid sized utilities, crowklding the market and driving down profits…or even maximum sales because of so many choices - maybe the latter is a more important factor and probably why Maverick was such a big hit with buyers…..

 

Final thought, I wonder if Ford rediscovers cars/crossovers as BEVs in pursuit of more economical aero design that improves battery range and efficiency. Not massive sellers but enough to add a point of difference that keeps the competition honest 

Edited September 2, 2023 by jpd80
Edit for clarity

[ice-capades]

14 hours ago, akirby said:

Not sure why this is so hard to understand or why it has to be repeated so often, but if they kept Fusion and Focus we would have no Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport or Maverick.  All vehicles with much higher prices and little to no direct competition.  The only way would have been to build at least 1 if not 2 factories and there wasn’t enough profit in those cars to come close to covering that cost.  Other mfrs especially Asians have a much larger global market for their cars and they don’t have full sized trucks and SUVs and commercial vehicles like Ford.  Each mfr has different strengths and weaknesses and Ford is simply choosing to play to their strengths just like the others do.  
 

My earlier point about the other mfrs not having competitors for thing like F series, Expedition, Bronco and Mustang was trying to point out that what works for one mfr doesn’t work as well for others based on history, customer base, institutional knowledge and engineering expertise not to mention manufacturing infrastructure.  
 

So the answer to why did Ford choose to kill Fusion is the same answer as why doesn’t Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia or VW make a full sized pickup or Bronco or Expedition.

 

Agreed. However, Ford could have easily moved Fusion production to the Flat Rock plant, or a new model compatible with Flat Rock's limitations, which has had excess production capacity for years now. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by ice-capades

[akirby]

15 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Agreed. However, Ford could have easily moved Fusion production to the Flat Rock plant, or a new model compatible with Flat Rock's limitations, which has had excess production capacity for years now. 

That’s why I said only 1 new factory if they reused flat rock.  But even that requires one or two additional shifts plus all the ongoing support.  That alone should tell you how little profit there was for Fusion when they chose to cancel it instead of moving it to flat rock where it had already been built.

[fuzzymoomoo]

8 minutes ago, akirby said:

That’s why I said only 1 new factory if they reused flat rock.  But even that requires one or two additional shifts plus all the ongoing support.  That alone should tell you how little profit there was for Fusion when they chose to cancel it instead of moving it to flat rock where it had already been built.

You can’t tell me that building Mustang (globally at that), Fusion, MKZ, and Continental at one place wouldn’t have been worth it, especially when it’s a much more centralized location than Mexico. Saves shipping costs for parts not stamped on site (the entire FRAP stamping department was eliminated last year), and FRAP would have finally after at least 15 years of being woefully underutilized be at or near capacity which helps profitability. There’s no way that plant is making any money as it operates today. 

[Oac98]

23 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You can’t tell me that building Mustang (globally at that), Fusion, MKZ, and Continental at one place wouldn’t have been worth it, especially when it’s a much more centralized location than Mexico. Saves shipping costs for parts not stamped on site (the entire FRAP stamping department was eliminated last year), and FRAP would have finally after at least 15 years of being woefully underutilized be at or near capacity which helps profitability. There’s no way that plant is making any money as it operates today. 

They could’ve easily done that and I get that SUVS are more profitable but instead of having Flat Rock heavily underutilized they could’ve easily done that and sustained two shifts. Ford loves running from segments altogether. Instead build them in China and we don’t even get a chance to buy them. That mondeo and zephyr would’ve sold decent here with the mustang I believe. I still believe some Ford plants won’t be around in 10 years the way they’re going with this electrification shit.

[ice-capades]

14 minutes ago, akirby said:

That’s why I said only 1 new factory if they reused flat rock.  But even that requires one or two additional shifts plus all the ongoing support.  That alone should tell you how little profit there was for Fusion when they chose to cancel it instead of moving it to flat rock where it had already been built.

 

I understand what you're saying, but having a plant facility such as Flat Rock that is so under-utilized comes at a substantial cost. The additional labor costs for producing either the Fusion or other suitable product would be part of the vehicle costs and be an incremental increase in the overall plant operations expense.

 

Ford is so all-consumed with not wanting to produce anything unless it meets their 10% profit objective that the company is missing opportunities to increase brand loyalty and sales. Ford is quick to talk about conquest sales for select products, but it ignores, for the most part, the value of brand loyalty and repeat sales which isn't anything new. You have to spend money to make money and you don't get an opportunity for a 2nd sale if you don't make the 1st sale. Ford has consistently lost market share for years but too many executives in Dearborn always have a "Better Idea" that senior management buys and implements at the expense of the Company's long-term success.  And to think back on the days when 6 out of the top 10 selling vehicles were Ford... until today when management's decisions seem to be resulting in grasping defeat from the jaws of victory. 

 

[akirby]

25 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You can’t tell me that building Mustang (globally at that), Fusion, MKZ, and Continental at one place wouldn’t have been worth it, especially when it’s a much more centralized location than Mexico. Saves shipping costs for parts not stamped on site (the entire FRAP stamping department was eliminated last year), and FRAP would have finally after at least 15 years of being woefully underutilized be at or near capacity which helps profitability. There’s no way that plant is making any money as it operates today. 

Oh there’s no doubt some profit could have been made but you’re forgetting the overhead resources required for designing, engineering, marketing, testing, certifying, redesigns, etc.   So you have all those added costs of hiring more people OR you have to cancel new projects.  Those resources are finite given a certain budget commitment.

 

Now if they had turned Cuatitlan into a 3rd C2 plant then maybe you could do C2 fusion, zephyr, Corsair, nautilus, escape, edge, Bronco sport and Maverick.  But that doesn’t solve the corporate resource issue keeping all those models.