It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[ice-capades]

17 hours ago, akirby said:

But there is a big difference between Fusion buyers and Maverick/Bronco Sport buyers.  A lot (probably the majority) of Fusion buyers bought cheaper SE models strictly on price, especially compared to other vehicles like Edge and Explorer.  Maverick and Bronco Sport buyers bought on emotion.  Even the cheaper Maverick was so desirable they were selling for $5K over MSRP.  Which buyers do you think are more likely to buy an explorer, Ranger, Bronco,  F150 or Superduty?

 

Current sales volume/market share and profit margins suggest that losing fusion and focus did not hurt Ford at all.

 

From the dealership perspective, the whole pricing issue with Maverick is that there's only about $300 profit for the Dealer selling at MSRP. I'm not a proponent of ADM's, but with the Maverick demand it's no wonder so many Dealers added ADM's.   

[danglin]

47 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

From the dealership perspective, the whole pricing issue with Maverick is that there's only about $300 profit for the Dealer selling at MSRP. I'm not a proponent of ADM's, but with the Maverick demand it's no wonder so many Dealers added ADM's.   

 

I have seen the dealership invoice pricing on Bronco also, and there is not much more "profit" in them either!  Not a fan of ADM either, but the only way ADM will end is for people to stop buying at those prices.

 

I detail vehicles for my local small town dealer. I detailed Two XLT Mavericks they recently took in for trade (Customers bought new Lariats that were on order), and they are both priced several thousand dollars over the New Sticker price!  One of them has already sold (23 Hybrid with only 2400 miles). When I asked the Dealership Manager about that, he said that is what the market is for them.  Crazy!! 

Edited October 21, 2023 by danglin

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, danglin said:

 

I have seen the dealership invoice pricing on Bronco also, and there is not much more "profit" in them either!  Not a fan of ADM either, but the only way ADM will end is for people to stop buying at those prices.

 

I detail vehicles for my local small town dealer. I detailed Two XLT Mavericks they recently took in for trade (Customers bought new Lariats that were on order), and they are both priced several thousand dollars over the New Sticker price!  One of them has already sold (23 Hybrid with only 2400 miles). When I asked the Dealership Manager about that, he said that is what the market is for them.  Crazy!! 

And you never saw that with Fusion or any other midsized sedan or any sedan for that matter.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Focus RS sold at or above list price with long waiting lists. Same now for Golf R and just about any other hot hatch, but Ford's no longer capable of competing in that market.

[Chrisgb]

18 hours ago, rmc523 said:

I'm going to coin a new auto segment.....

 

the Cedan - a crossover sedan sort of like that new Crown, where it's more of a sedan body but sitting up higher.

 

17 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Wasn’t that what Ford called Active?

>>>And Honda Called  Crosstour? BMW X4?

Blecch.

[LSchicago]

3 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

From the dealership perspective, the whole pricing issue with Maverick is that there's only about $300 profit for the Dealer selling at MSRP. I'm not a proponent of ADM's, but with the Maverick demand it's no wonder so many Dealers added ADM's.   

 

 

And if they can't get ADM, they try to sell you GPS tracking which the truck comes with, and multiple other "protection" and extra coverage packages. Then they soak you on financing. Dealer gave me some BS that Ford credit was at 12% with excellent credit. Came back with "Best we can get is 9.74% through Chase, but we can get that down 1% if you sign up for the tire and windshield protection package. That was $3,800 alone! LOL. I said just write it up at 9.74% without the package and I will refinance it.  he says you have to wait 90 days so we get credit for financing, but you can do what you want. Dealer would not honor price protection and would not even acknowledge that it existed, all the way up to the General Manager. "Never heard of that". After 2 weeks of trying to get my $500 back, I gave up and left SEVERAL reviews. I hope it was worth keeping that. I refinanced 2 weeks later for 3.5% less. That dealer will never get another penny from me. It made me start to hate the dealer model. And I had a great experience 5 years ago when I bought my Mustang there. Whole new crew from last year though. Scammers and thieves. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by LSchicago

[ice-capades]

35 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

And if they can't get ADM, they try to sell you GPS tracking which the truck comes with, and multiple other "protection" and extra coverage packages. Then they soak you on financing. Dealer gave me some BS that Ford credit was at 12% with excellent credit. Came back with "Best we can get is 9.74% through Chase, but we can get that down 1% if you sign up for the tire and windshield protection package. That was $3,800 alone! LOL. I said just write it up at 9.74% without the package and I will refinance it.  he says you have to wait 90 days so we get credit for financing, but you can do what you want. Dealer would not honor price protection and would not even acknowledge that it existed, all the way up to the General Manager. "Never heard of that". After 2 weeks of trying to get my $500 back, I gave up and left SEVERAL reviews. I hope it was worth keeping that. I refinanced 2 weeks later for 3.5% less. That dealer will never get another penny from me. It made me start to hate the dealer model. And I had a great experience 5 years ago when I bought my Mustang there. Whole new crew from last year though. Scammers and thieves. 

 

Obviously, you were dealing with the wrong Dealer and fortunately not all Dealers operate like that. In some states, Dealers are prohibited from trying to force customers to purchase aftermarket products such as appearance packages, VIN etching, etc. Dealers claiming ignorance or denying Ford's decades long price protection policy are just trying to gouge their customers. You said that you refinanced 2 week later. With the same Dealer?   

[akirby]

6 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Focus RS sold at or above list price with long waiting lists. 

Both of them?

[DeluxeStang]

On 10/5/2023 at 3:13 PM, Andrew L said:

 

The only way for Zephyr to work in the US is it would need the 3.0T added back to it (if it will fit), the 2.0 isn't enough for the US market.  And they would need a hybrid model preferably a plugin option.

 

But with that I am not crazy about Ford importing a Fusion and Zephyr from China, I know currently that would probably be the only way for them to get them here but if they were to re-introduce them to the lineup I would prefer them being built in North America at least.

Most of us pushing for the existing fusion and zephyr to be brought here are pushing to have them built in a N. American plant. It seems like importing them from China would just be a political mine field, and would kill profits due to high costs of importing goods. Then again, the UAW is making it hard for Ford to justify producing more cars here. 

[T-dubz]

9 hours ago, akirby said:

And you never saw that with Fusion or any other midsized sedan or any sedan for that matter.

If there weren’t any supply issues, I don’t think you’d be seeing ADMs on mavericks or used mavericks selling for more than new ones either. With that said, I don’t think the fusion would demand ADMs even if it had supply issues.

 

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Most of us pushing for the existing fusion and zephyr to be brought here are pushing to have them built in a N. American plant. It seems like importing them from China would just be a political mine field, and would kill profits due to high costs of importing goods. Then again, the UAW is making it hard for Ford to justify producing more cars here. 

Nautilus is coming from China and I don’t think anyone cares.

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

If there weren’t any supply issues, I don’t think you’d be seeing ADMs on mavericks or used mavericks selling for more than new ones either. 

Probably no ADMs with more volume but they certainly wouldn’t need discounts,  Buyers love them and do lots of customizing.

[Gurgeh]

31 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Nautilus is coming from China and I don’t think anyone cares.

 

When I put in my order last spring, initially I cared -- I wanted it to be built in the U.S. but I really liked the new design (compared to all the competitors) and decided that all things considered it was the best option for a luxury mid-sized two-row crossover. Now, a month into the strike I find that I now care even more than I did initially, but in the opposite direction. I'm glad that the 2024 Nautilus I ordered isn't going to be facing potentially long delays and won't be built by a radicalized, disgruntled workforce.

[DeluxeStang]

12 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Focus RS sold at or above list price with long waiting lists. Same now for Golf R and just about any other hot hatch, but Ford's no longer capable of competing in that market.

The rs and st were desirable, the rest of the focus range was not. You can't get those higher performance variants without the base model car they're based on. While the general shift to Cuvs didn't help the focus and fiesta, the same goes for their platforms being poorly utilized and not profitable, I'm convinced the final nail in the coffin was the powershit DCT. 

 

That transmission hurt the reputation of the focus and fiesta so much that no-one wanted to buy them, those nameplates are beyond burned in the minds of the American consumer. You really need to nail the reliability of your entry level models more than any other model in your range, because those are the customers that notice longevity, or the lack of it more than any other group. Repairs sting a lot more when you have no money. 

 

The focus and fiesta spit in the face of people who just wanted a reliable, efficient car. I'm convinced one of the reasons the maverick is so reliable, has to do with the fact that Ford had internal discussions regarding how they couldn't afford another entry level vehicle to miss with consumers. 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, T-dubz said:

Nautilus is coming from China and I don’t think anyone cares.

I've seen people on this Ford obsessed site say they won't buy it because it's made in China. If Ford fans are turned off by that, it stands to reason mainstream consumers will be as well if they learn that. 

[T-dubz]

18 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

I've seen people on this Ford obsessed site say they won't buy it because it's made in China. If Ford fans are turned off by that, it stands to reason mainstream consumers will be as well if they learn that. 

I kinda think it’s the opposite. Car fans in general are probably the only ones who even pay attention to where a car is built. Your average car buyer has no idea. If it weren’t for this site, I’d have no idea where the explorer, or bronco or ranger were built. Think of other brands too. I couldn’t tell you where the Silverado, tacoma, crv, Santa Fe, Prius, etc are built.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I kinda think it’s the opposite. Car fans in general are probably the only ones who even pay attention to where a car is built. Your average car buyer has no idea. If it weren’t for this site, I’d have no idea where the explorer, or bronco or ranger were built. Think of other brands too. I couldn’t tell you where the Silverado, tacoma, crv, Santa Fe, Prius, etc are built.

My experience has been quite different, but I see where you're coming from. I've known people who couldn't tell you what kind of engine they have in their car, but know what country makes it. It's really strange that many of the people I've met know that detail, but know very little else about their cars. 

[HotRunrGuy]

Heck, look at how the made in China Buick Envision far outsells the made in Kentucky USA Lincoln Corsair,,,,

 

HRG

[Rick73]

Noticed a TV Ad for first time last night during college football game for a BMW i7 electric sedan.  Price starts at $106k and goes up considerably from there.  BMW must think some buyers still prefer sedans even when they could afford SUVs.  Mentioned college football because maybe that is the target audience they are trying to reach.

[Chrisgb]

11 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I've seen people on this Ford obsessed site say they won't buy it because it's made in China. If Ford fans are turned off by that, it stands to reason mainstream consumers will be as well if they learn that. 

 

9 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

Heck, look at how the made in China Buick Envision far outsells the made in Kentucky USA Lincoln Corsair,,,,

 

HRG

It doesn't seem to bother Buick buyers. For the 2024 model year, all Buicks come from China including now the Enclave and the Encore and of course the Envista which replaces the outgoing Envision. Buick buyers are either ambivalent or clueless, as I expect a sizable portion of the market are. 

[silvrsvt]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:52 AM, GearheadGrrrl said:

Focus RS sold at or above list price with long waiting lists. Same now for Golf R and just about any other hot hatch, but Ford's no longer capable of competing in that market.

 

Actually it didn't after the gotta have its got it

 

https://jalopnik.com/you-can-get-an-awesome-deal-on-a-ford-st-or-rs-right-no-1825650235

[Footballfan]

7 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

 

It doesn't seem to bother Buick buyers. For the 2024 model year, all Buicks come from China including now the Enclave and the Encore and of course the Envista which replaces the outgoing Envision. Buick buyers are either ambivalent or clueless, as I expect a sizable portion of the market are. 

The Enclave is built in Lansing, Michigan and the Encore in South Korea

[DeluxeStang]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, GearheadGrrrl said:

So Ford, how about skipping the lift on an Escape so I can autocross it and tweak the Ecobeast 4. to more than 250 horses while your at it?

We're already seeing mavericks at race tracks, including racing around the 'ring. If the maverick can handle track duty, so can the escape, they're the same platform. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

Maverick and Escape are allowed in rallycross but not autocross due to their high center of gravity. The only current Ford that is allowed in autocross is the Mustang.

[GearheadGrrrl]

And maybe Mach-E, SCCA won't allow a vehicle in autocross if the height is greater than the track width. But if they can get center of gravity data showing it has a stability factor of less than 1.3 they'll allow it and some EVs have been allowed in autocross through that exception.

[grbeck]

On 10/21/2023 at 9:09 AM, Chrisgb said:

 

>>>And Honda Called  Crosstour? BMW X4?

Blecch.

 

According to the Honda website, Temple of vtec, the next Accord will not be a sedan. It will have a configuration along the lines of the old Crosstour (one hopes it has a considerably better proportioned design). 

Edited October 23, 2023 by grbeck