mackinaw Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 This is behind a paywall in today's Detroit News, but it seems GM is considering bringing back hybrids for the North American market. A quote from the article: "General Motors Co., the automaker that has been pushing toward an all-electric lineup, is reviewing the potential of bringing hybrid vehicle options back to the North American market. "GM is currently assessing potential future investment," GM spokesperson George Svigos said in a statement, adding: "No final decision has been made. GM is committed to an all-EV future globally. On that pathway, we continue to study consumer preferences and powertrain options, to ensure we best respond to customer demand and comply with an uncertain, complex and increasingly stringent regulatory landscape for 2027 and beyond." https://www.detroitnews.com/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, mackinaw said: comply with an uncertain, complex and increasingly stringent regulatory landscape for 2027 and beyond." The global automotive industry's regulatory landscape for 2027 and beyond will be increasingly stringent for sure, but it's not uncertain and not complex. Compliance is best achieved with an all-electric lineup, which GM is pushing towards anyway. Edited November 28, 2023 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 GM will be at a competitive disadvantage if they don’t. Right now Ford has a great hybrid portfolio and it will be even stronger as the new 2.3 Ecoboost/PHEV power train is deployed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 4 hours ago, rperez817 said: The global automotive industry's regulatory landscape for 2027 and beyond will be increasingly stringent for sure, but it's not uncertain and not complex. Compliance is best achieved with an all-electric lineup, If you say this one more time you’re getting a long vacation. They aren’t going away but they’re also not going to be anywhere near 100% of sales in the near future. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, akirby said: If you say this one more time you’re getting a long vacation. They aren’t going away but they’re also not going to be anywhere near 100% of sales in the near future. market is fickle for sure...flavor of the month changes on a regular basis cars to SUVs, ICE to BEV, BEV to hybrids, and probably eventually vice versa....stay tuned...and then whats next?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 2 hours ago, akirby said: They aren’t going away but they’re also not going to be anywhere near 100% of sales in the near future. For near future timeframe (2024 - 2027), GM isn't expecting BEV to comprise anywhere near 100% of their sales. That goal is longer term, after 2027 for sure, probably in the early to mid 2030s. The decision under consideration by GM management is whether to incorporate hybrids (which GM currently sells in China) into their North America product lineup for regulatory compliance and other reasons, and whether the opportunity costs of doing so are worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 On 11/28/2023 at 4:51 PM, akirby said: If you say this one more time you’re getting a permanent vacation. They aren’t going away but they’re also not going to be anywhere near 100% of sales in the near future. Fixed it for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 On 11/28/2023 at 12:41 PM, Texasota said: GM will be at a competitive disadvantage if they don’t. Right now Ford has a great hybrid portfolio and it will be even stronger as the new 2.3 Ecoboost/PHEV power train is deployed. Toyota has a great hybrid portfolio....Ford is fair in their hybrid offerings. Don't get me wrong, a Ford hybrid is a damn fine choice....but Toyota offers more models that are hybrid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, twintornados said: Toyota has a great hybrid portfolio....Ford is fair in their hybrid offerings. Don't get me wrong, a Ford hybrid is a damn fine choice....but Toyota offers more models that are hybrid. Ford had the opportunity to go all in on hybrids as a transition to BEVs 5-6 years ago as C2 and CD6 were being developed and rolling out and chose not to. I think it’s a decision they will come to regret as time goes on, especially if and when fuel prices climb again. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 57 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Ford had the opportunity to go all in on hybrids as a transition to BEVs 5-6 years ago as C2 and CD6 were being developed and rolling out and chose not to. I think it’s a decision they will come to regret as time goes on, especially if and when fuel prices climb again. Potentially, but it sounds like platforms like c2 enable ford to very rapidly develop new product offerings. So while Ford may be behind in the hybrid game right now, if the demand for hybrids skyrockets, platforms like c2 should let them catch up relatively quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Ford had the opportunity to go all in on hybrids as a transition to BEVs 5-6 years ago as C2 and CD6 were being developed and rolling out and chose not to. I think it’s a decision they will come to regret as time goes on, especially if and when fuel prices climb again. I don’t think that was by choice. I don’t think they could get enough batteries. Lack of resources whether it’s batteries or factory space or engineers has been an ongoing issue for Ford and severely limits their ability to take full advantage of opportunities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 23 minutes ago, akirby said: I don’t think they could get enough batteries. Lack of re And that falls squarely on Jim Hackett. He could have secured battery supply instead of doing nothing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: And that falls squarely on Jim Hackett. He could have secured battery supply instead of doing nothing. Bringing Hackett in was a pretty massive mistake. Sure, he brought in a very unique perspective as someone who hasn't worked in the auto industry. But that means he obviously knew nothing about cars, or the business surrounding them. The best thing Hackett did was introduce and encourage design thinking principles within the company, and encourage Ford to start thinking about how to differentiate itself. That's the train of thought that led to the mach-e, maverick, and bronco sport. Beyond introducing design thinking principles, I don't think he did anything else helpful during his time at Ford. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: And that falls squarely on Jim Hackett. He could have secured battery supply instead of doing nothing. Is that a known fact or just a guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, akirby said: Is that a known fact or just a guess? He said as such. I’ll have to try and find it when I get home but I distinctly remember reading one of his word salad interviews where he said he didn’t see hybrids as a good ROI because he thought it was a dead end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 5 hours ago, akirby said: I don’t think that was by choice. I don’t think they could get enough batteries. Lack of resources whether it’s batteries or factory space or engineers has been an ongoing issue for Ford and severely limits their ability to take full advantage of opportunities. Ford has inexplicably had battery (hybrid and now BEV) supply issues for 20 years......can't understand why they've not been able to ramp up at least hybrid battery production in that timeframe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, akirby said: Is that a known fact or just a guess? Hackett was very open about Ford not investing in battery development and production, Ford could easily source enough batteries for its needs. Even as late as 2020, Hackett was still adamant that Ford didn’t need its own battery plants… https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-strategy-ford-no-advantage/ Quote “I’ve met with a number of the people that you know that are in the supply side of this. And it was our estimation, in fact, our whole team went through a really deep dive on this six months ago, that the supply chain has ramped up since Elon built his Gigafactory,” Hackett said. “And so there’s plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory. There’s no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing as what Ford can draw on.” Add to that, the whole point of the VW MEB deal on electric vehicles was to use VW’s battery supply… Edited December 1, 2023 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 On 11/29/2023 at 10:13 AM, rperez817 said: For near future timeframe (2024 - 2027), GM isn't expecting BEV to comprise anywhere near 100% of their sales. That goal is longer term, after 2027 for sure, probably in the early to mid 2030s. The decision under consideration by GM management is whether to incorporate hybrids (which GM currently sells in China) into their North America product lineup for regulatory compliance and other reasons, and whether the opportunity costs of doing so are worth it. It’s still OK to pursue a total BEV goal as the ultimate but in the meantime, GM can also seek to improve the efficiency of its ICE vehicles by adding hybrids to improve existing CAFE compliance. A long transition is just beginning, it is important for GM and Ford to bring all customers along, not just the chosen few… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 49 minutes ago, jpd80 said: It’s still OK to pursue a total BEV goal as the ultimate but in the meantime, GM can also seek to improve the efficiency of its ICE vehicles by adding hybrids to improve existing CAFE compliance. A long transition is just beginning, it is important for GM and Ford to bring all customers along, not just the chosen few… I’ve long advocated for Ford to take this path until the infrastructure to support mass adoption of BEVs is built out more. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 24 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I’ve long advocated for Ford to take this path until the infrastructure to support mass adoption of BEVs is built out more. Correct, there is so much that can be done today with C2 hybrid and PHEVs. Not forcing buyers but offering choice on models like Bronco Sport would surely be no brainer 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) Here’s thought, the use a couple of C2 based top hats on the GE1 compact Electric platform Maybe swap Mach E top hat for Maverick pickup and watch the change in BEV perception. I think Ford might be fishing with the wrong bait but it has loads of options at its disposal…. F150 for the Lightning but perhaps the CD6 Explorer top hat as BEV SUV & a Sport Track? Edited December 1, 2023 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dequindre Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 The massive demand for the Maverick has proven that Americans are very much open to the balance of fuel economy and practicality that hybrids can bring, which is no small feat considering that the Maverick is a truck. I like Toyota's idea of making some of their volume products that are NOT known for performance, off-road capability, or towing (e.g. Camry, Venza, Crown, Crown Signia) hybrids across the board. I'm sure they are reaping the CAFE benefits while still meeting the needs of their loyal sedan and on-road CUV buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, Dequindre said: The massive demand for the Maverick has proven that Americans are very much open to the balance of fuel economy and practicality that hybrids can bring, which is no small feat considering that the Maverick is a truck. I like Toyota's idea of making some of their volume products that are NOT known for performance, off-road capability, or towing (e.g. Camry, Venza, Crown, Crown Signia) hybrids across the board. I'm sure they are reaping the CAFE benefits while still meeting the needs of their loyal sedan and on-road CUV buyers. The response to Maverick is also driven by people looking for something different in a sea of compact utilities. The entry level hybrid Maverick brought the technology to buyers at a sub $25k price that buyers couldn’t ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 21 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: Bringing Hackett in was a pretty massive mistake. Sure, he brought in a very unique perspective as someone who hasn't worked in the auto industry. But that means he obviously knew nothing about cars, or the business surrounding them. The best thing Hackett did was introduce and encourage design thinking principles within the company, and encourage Ford to start thinking about how to differentiate itself. That's the train of thought that led to the mach-e, maverick, and bronco sport. Beyond introducing design thinking principles, I don't think he did anything else helpful during his time at Ford. He got some really cool office furniture into the Glass Palace.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 11 hours ago, jpd80 said: The response to Maverick is also driven by people looking for something different in a sea of compact utilities. The entry level hybrid Maverick brought the technology to buyers at a sub $25k price that buyers couldn’t ignore. How many bought the hybrid just because it was the cheapest? We’ll see now that it costs more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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