CKNSLS Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Is Ford really falling behind? They update their products as frequently or more frequently than Toyota does Probably more...but does it matter? Look how many Camrys Toyota sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 The JCB will do everything possible to make exports profitable. Let me know when the FRB does the same. Any analysis of Toyota that ignores Toyota's margins in the US and the descent of the Camry in ATP rankings is worse than useless: It's misleading and deceptive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Probably more...but does it matter? Look how many Camrys Toyota sells. How many Fusions do you think Ford could sell with an extra $4K discount? You don't get to 400K units overnight - it takes years and generations of repeat buyers. It will take at least 10 more years for Fusion to get there - if it can get there without big discounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Toyota proves you don't have to have revolutionary products to make money. Toyota is the McDonalds of automobiles. They sell more boring, tasteless and unhealthy (safety recalls) crap than any other company on the planet...but they make a lot of money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Was just looking at Toyota's sales.....how do they sell 2,600 of this hideous NX things right out of the gate, when the much more attractive MKC is only at 1,500 or so? Brand I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 The JCB will do everything possible to make exports profitable. Let me know when the FRB does the same. Any analysis of Toyota that ignores Toyota's margins in the US and the descent of the Camry in ATP rankings is worse than useless: It's misleading and deceptive. So I have yet to hear you say anything positive about any other automaker than Ford. Questions: what is the ATP of the camry vs the Fusion? why does the Camry matter? when the majority of Toyota sales growth have been in CUVs, and overseas? what does it mean when ford builds fewer products in the us than GM, yet employs more workers to build those cars and at a higher hourly rate? When is this "bubble" pick one, going to burst? Why is Ford increasing its labor force if they think there is a bubble? What is the anticipated market share for ford by the end of 2015 vs GM or Toyota? What is the anticipated profit for Ford by the end of 2015 vs GM or Toyota? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Probably more...but does it matter? Look how many Camrys Toyota sells. Toyota has greater variety of products. (More irons in the fire) example would be CUVs where they have: Rav4 highlander Venza 4runner Sequoia LandCruiser Lexus NX Lexus RX Lexus LX Lexus GX Ford Escape edge explorer expedition Lincoln MKC MKX Navigator MKT Plus they are more efficient automaker producing cars at a lower cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Toyota has greater variety of products. (More irons in the fire) example would be CUVs where they have: Rav4 highlander Venza 4runner Sequoia LandCruiser Lexus NX Lexus RX Lexus LX Lexus GX Ford Escape edge explorer expedition Lincoln MKC MKX Navigator MKT Plus they are more efficient automaker producing cars at a lower cost. You forgot the Flex if your counting the Venza as a CUV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 You forgot the Flex if your counting the Venza as a CUV Venda is also being dropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So I have yet to hear you say anything positive about any other automaker than Ford. Questions: what is the ATP of the camry vs the Fusion? why does the Camry matter? when the majority of Toyota sales growth have been in CUVs, and overseas? what does it mean when ford builds fewer products in the us than GM, yet employs more workers to build those cars and at a higher hourly rate? When is this "bubble" pick one, going to burst? Why is Ford increasing its labor force if they think there is a bubble? What is the anticipated market share for ford by the end of 2015 vs GM or Toyota? What is the anticipated profit for Ford by the end of 2015 vs GM or Toyota? Here's the thing Biker: I *respond* to your posts---on the rare occasions that there is anything of substance to respond to, and on other occasions just to be a bit of a jerk. It's not my job, in responding to you, to talk up other companies. It is to address the numerous and glaring weaknesses in nearly all of your arguments. "Fusion’s average transaction price was $26,586 in February, $2,772 more than Camry" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-03-31/fusion-leads-u-s-cars-driving-sales-gains-eluding-camry September 2013: http://www.thereporteronline.com/business/20130927/why-toyotas-camry-might-not-stay-americas-top-selling-car While Toyota is holding on to the sales lead, it has done so at lower prices. The average transaction price on a Camry has declined by 6.4 percent this year through August. In contrast, Accord's transaction prices rose 7.7 percent and Fusion's increased 4.5 percent, according to Bloomberg Industries. September 2014: When comparing August 2013 to August 2014, the top four volume models in this segment – Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion – have seen transaction prices drop $600 http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/truecar-reports-on-auto-industry-performance-274725891.html By inference, the sizable gap between Fusion and Camry ATPs that existed in March 2013 was maintained more or less as recently as September of last year. ---- And as far as when the bubble's going to burst, ask yourself this: Would you get off a sinking ship as soon as possible, even if you didn't know the exact minute it was going to capsize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Plus they are more efficient automaker producing cars at a lower cost. I would like to see the actual numbers showing they are "more effecient" at producing a car. Just because McDonalds produces the lowest cost burger, doesn't make it a better burger joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Here's the thing Biker: I *respond* to your posts---on the rare occasions that there is anything of substance to respond to, and on other occasions just to be a bit of a jerk. It's not my job, in responding to you, to talk up other companies. It is to address the numerous and glaring weaknesses in nearly all of your arguments. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-03-31/fusion-leads-u-s-cars-driving-sales-gains-eluding-camry September 2013: http://www.thereporteronline.com/business/20130927/why-toyotas-camry-might-not-stay-americas-top-selling-car September 2014: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/truecar-reports-on-auto-industry-performance-274725891.html By inference, the sizable gap between Fusion and Camry ATPs that existed in March 2013 was maintained more or less as recently as September of last year. ---- And as far as when the bubble's going to burst, ask yourself this: Would you get off a sinking ship as soon as possible, even if you didn't know the exact minute it was going to capsize? Isn't Ford's Stock price is sinking like rock too. down 12% off of its 52 week high, while the market as a whole has risen %15 over the same period. In a way this mirrors ford's market share and their profits, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Well, trying to turn the US market into Europe will not make investors less scared. A Focus coupe that you claim is 'needed' would belly flop, since it is not the 90's, when teen girls got the latest trendy FWD 2 doors for "Sweet 16". Current young adults want small SUV's, not cramped coupes with useless rear seats and trunks. And don't even 'go there' about station wagons. Small utes are gaining in EUR, and I see a day when no wagons will be built at all. So, I say Ford just needs to cut the red tape getting sellable cars/trucks built and delivered, as the dealer rep posted. Forget dreams of "United States of Europe". And now I think they need a B class SUV, compete with Honda, Jeep and GM. No useless FWD, trendy, sissified coupe'. Local Honda dealer has a few Civic coupes collecting salt and dust. No one wants them anymore. Those that want 2 doors want RWD and V8, for a hobby car, not a practical daily driver. Edited March 5, 2015 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Market share and profits have virtually nothing to do with short term stock prices. Ford does not employ more workers than GM. 188K for Ford compared to 212K for GM. U.S. sales were 2.4M for Ford and 2.9M for GM in 2014. Up until recently Ford's profit margin was far better than GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) "Fusion’s average transaction price was $26,586 in February, $2,772 more than Camry" I am not sure this is a plus. Toyota could still be making more profit on Camry than Ford is making on the Fusion. Edited March 5, 2015 by Gnostic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 "Fusion’s average transaction price was $26,586 in February, $2,772 more than Camry" I am not sure this is a plus. Toyota could still be making more profit on Camry than Ford is making on the Fusion. Of course it's a plus, because no matter what Toyota is making on Camry, selling a Fusion for less than $26,586 would still yield less profit for Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 out on a limb here, but fords CUV/ SUV lineup I believe outsells every Toyota competitor..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Toyota has greater variety of products. (More irons in the fire) example would be CUVs where they have: Rav4 highlander Venza 4runner Sequoia LandCruiser . 4Runner, Sequoia and LandCruiser are not CUVs They're bof SUVs. And Sequoia/LandCruiser are redundant. Edited March 5, 2015 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 out on a limb here, but fords CUV/ SUV lineup I believe outsells every Toyota competitor..... But Their Sales are growing while ford's are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 But Their Sales are growing while ford's are not. Citation needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) why does the Camry matter? Let's leave the F150 out of any discussion of Ford Motor. We'll also talk about Apple-------but ignore the iPhone. We can also talk about the ocean----but we'll ignore the water in it. Edited March 5, 2015 by RichardJensen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) But Their Sales are growing while ford's are not. If you looked at the Feb 2015 total sales of CUS and SUVS only the Rav4 and 4runner ( of all things) grew. Edited March 6, 2015 by pictor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 All the growth for Toyota is basically happening outside the USA. There's no point dropping prices to produce another 10,000 vehicles a month if in the end you wind up with the same profit as the lesser build number - that is a waste of resources. I think this concept escapes a lot of people who subscribe to the traditional sales model of more sales = more profit. It's like Flex selling with high ATPs, up around $35K-$38K zone very profitable regional car but drop the price $5K to sell more and Ford would go backwards with costs of making more zeroing out any additional profit from sales. I know it's more complex than this but it seems that Ford is only interested in increasing volume when there high ATPs attached to the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The Camry is the same basic 20 year old platform.Same for the Corolla. the Tacoma is basicly the the same Tacoma it has been for 20 years. Toyota doesn't scrap things that work. They are the masters at convincing the buying public that a Lexus is completely different than a Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Exactly. They're doing the bare minimum on most vehicles and relying on brand loyalty and lower costs to keep sales going. Sound familiar? At some point they will have to start spending big bucks on new platforms and if they have to do a lot of them at the same time they'll pay the price in profitability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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