akirby Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, twintornados said: Does buying one used count?? Yes! That makes two of you. It's a running joke with @SoonerLS 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, akirby said: Yes! That makes two of you. It's a running joke with @SoonerLS If anyone see's this on Craigslist, it will be 3 of us,,,, HRG 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, akirby said: Yes! That makes two of you. It's a running joke with @SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said: Correct. The Chrysler/Dodge minivan appeared as a 1984 , the Chevy/GM Astro/Safari came out in 1985, the Aerostar in 1986. Harley Lover, how do you figure the Chrysler was the "reactionary" product? HRG Where do you find the word "reaction" in my post? I wrote revelation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 7 hours ago, rperez817 said: The fashion & trendiness aspect of the industry plus economies of scale for automakers who benefit from selling the same products globally. Main difference in the EU market is that the proliferation of crossovers hasn't negatively impacted the availability of wagons (estates) there. That's why EU consumers can buy these beautiful yet practical machines but U.S. consumers cannot. Warning: Some cars have already been dropped in Europe for CUVs. It just has not been as abrupt yet as the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said: If anyone see's this on Craigslist, it will be 3 of us,,,, HRG Wasn that a mule for Bronco R? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Wasn that a mule for Bronco R? Nobody knew about Bronco R at the time except for the few that needed to. I hadn't even heard about it. That's probably what that was though in hindsight. Edited December 3, 2019 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Hopefully that sees lite of day....reg cab looks good on those small trucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 12 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Here is the problem-the only Fusions that are selling are lower end models with additional discounts on them, because of lower demand and competition in the marketplace for sedans, which torpedoes your higher ATP argument-if people are going to spend say $36K on a new car, they are going to buy what they think is most versatile/bang for the buck, which means a CUV. That is part of the reason why the next gen Fusion is going to be reborn as a sport wagon/Subaru competitor-it will be a "unique" without much competition, but yet command premium pricing. Of course the only Fusions selling well are the cheap models - its what happens when you’re competition is a generation newer. You don’t think a class competitive Fusion would be able to command higher ATP’s similar to Camry, Accord, etc? Ford has lots of unused capacity at its Mexican, Mustang, and Edge assembly plants. A sport wagon is fine - it just likely won’t be a big seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) Ford is working on a Mondeo successor, CD5??? I think, I'm forgetting the exact code. It's described as a crossover but Ford has given it a Car code which is interesting. Regrettably, it's not on the US charts so I don't have much confidence in it coming to the US right now as the Fusion replacement. I'm wondering if this is another Puma, an EU specific product. It's also getting a PHEV btw. It is built on a version of their new FWD architecture, there are prototypes running around built off of the new Focus. So despite regulations, the US isn't the only market that is getting the crossover alternative to the sedan. I do feel that without something more stylish and traditional in the entry-level space, Ford is leaving a conspicuous hole. They certainly could shrink that market down to 100,000 vehicles annual and still be in good shape. So I am hoping we get that unknown Mondeo crossover replacement, but I think Escape/Kuga is likely their last truly global volume product. Ford appears to have moved back to regional development for most products with low volume exports here and there. I know Ford of China is largely its own entity now which is a big part of solving their adaptability problem. I think we are just going to have to get use to Ford going back to a much more regionalized product showroom with diminished opportunity to share the final products. I think this is a smart approach because Ford's weakest products are those that have to please the most markets. Edited December 4, 2019 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Assimilator said: Ford is working on a Mondeo successor, CD5??? I think, I'm forgetting the exact code. It's described as a crossover but Ford has given it a Car code which is interesting. Regrettably, it's not on the US charts so I don't have much confidence in it coming to the US right now as the Fusion replacement. I'm wondering if this is another Puma, an EU specific product. It's also getting a PHEV btw. It is built on a version of their new FWD architecture, there are prototypes running around built off of the new Focus. So despite regulations, the US isn't the only market that is getting the crossover alternative to the sedan. I do feel that without something more stylish and traditional in the entry-level space, Ford is leaving a conspicuous hole. They certainly could shrink that market down to 100,000 vehicles annual and still be in good shape. So I am hoping we get that unknown Mondeo crossover replacement, but I think Escape/Kuga is likely their last truly global volume product. Ford appears to have moved back to regional development for most products with low volume exports here and there. I know Ford of China is largely its own entity now which is a big part of solving their adaptability problem. I think we are just going to have to get use to Ford going back to a much more regionalized product showroom with diminished opportunity to share the final products. I think this is a smart approach because Ford's weakest products are those that have to please the most markets. CD542? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Assimilator said: Ford is working on a Mondeo successor, CD5??? I think, I'm forgetting the exact code. It's described as a crossover but Ford has given it a Car code which is interesting. Regrettably, it's not on the US charts so I don't have much confidence in it coming to the US right now as the Fusion replacement. I'm wondering if this is another Puma, an EU specific product. It's also getting a PHEV btw. It is built on a version of their new FWD architecture, there are prototypes running around built off of the new Focus. So despite regulations, the US isn't the only market that is getting the crossover alternative to the sedan. I do feel that without something more stylish and traditional in the entry-level space, Ford is leaving a conspicuous hole. They certainly could shrink that market down to 100,000 vehicles annual and still be in good shape. So I am hoping we get that unknown Mondeo crossover replacement, but I think Escape/Kuga is likely their last truly global volume product. Ford appears to have moved back to regional development for most products with low volume exports here and there. I know Ford of China is largely its own entity now which is a big part of solving their adaptability problem. I think we are just going to have to get use to Ford going back to a much more regionalized product showroom with diminished opportunity to share the final products. I think this is a smart approach because Ford's weakest products are those that have to please the most markets. I dont necessarily disagree...i do strongly believe hatchett is focusing on fords strongest market which is north america and putting some foreign cows in the barn.....ford does have a perception problem and shit like what has/is occurring in chiraq is not helpful...there is preception ford is lagging in lectric technology....there is perception ford is now basically a truck company...there is preception a furniture guy may not be the right choice....we shall see how the quarter shakes out shortly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 GM and Ford are licenses to print money, only stupid decisions get in the way of that. The amount of new product arriving in 2020 will start to dispel some negative perceptions regarding Ford and if they are on their game, Ford will exploit those new product launches to the max to build excitement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, jpd80 said: CD542? That's the one! Also interesting is this graphic which hints at the models to be based on the C2 architecture. Focus Escape Corsair Transit Connect I THINK I can account for most of the vehicles still to come. Edge Nautilus CD542 (Mondeo replacement) Compact Pickup Compact Utility Bronco Scout Chinese Lincoln Compact Crossover I'm not sure which of these vehicles counts as "White Space", maybe the pickup? But that sedan profile is super interesting here. That could be CD542 or something else, I don't know. It would not be surprised if it's a Chinese vehicle. https://twitter.com/MikeMartinez_AN/status/1202214435378679808 Edited December 4, 2019 by Assimilator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Assimilator said: That's the one! Also interesting is this graphic which hints at the models to be based on the C2 architecture. Focus Escape Corsair Transit Connect I THINK I can account for most of the vehicles still to come. Edge Nautilus CD542 (Mondeo replacement) Compact Pickup Compact Utility Bronco Scout Chinese Lincoln Compact Crossover I'm not sure which of these vehicles counts as "White Space", maybe the pickup? But that sedan profile is super interesting here. That could be CD542 or something else, I don't know. It would not be surprised if it's a Chinese vehicle. https://twitter.com/MikeMartinez_AN/status/1202214435378679808 So are we for sure the NG Nautilus/Edge goes on C2? I was praying that it would be a shortend Explorer Platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) Edge and Nautilus are moving to the new C2 FWD platform, not CD6. I'm curious to see how they scale this platform up so much, but I suspect we will see a reworked version of C2 for the larger cars since they usually need new suspensions and hard points for heavier, wider, longer designs. Europe is suppose to get replacements for their CD4 Galaxy and S-Max based on C2, but I'm not sure what those are. Edited December 4, 2019 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Edge and Nautilus are moving to the new C2 FWD architecture, not CD6. Thanks! I am bit bummed but I'll get over it. So will the Mustang move to CD6 or will CD6 be only Explorer and Aviator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) Mustang is staying on its own platform, but shares some parts commonality with CD6 now and in the next-gen design (heck, CD6 shares parts with CD4). CD6 is an Explorer/Aviator only platform however, although it started life with more vehicles promised to it (Continental and Mustang). Either way, the parts sharing is how they can keep it all under the same "Architecture" even if the platforms aren't related. So it doesn't matter, you're getting the right modernized platform for each car with better design efficiency. Edited December 4, 2019 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Mustang is staying on its own platform, but shares some parts commonality with CD6 now and in the next-gen design (heck, CD6 shares parts with CD4). CD6 is an Explorer/Aviator only platform however, although it started life with more vehicles promised to it (Continental and Mustang). Either way, the parts sharing is how they can keep it all under the same "Architecture" even if the platforms aren't related. So it doesn't matter, you're getting the right modernized platform for each car with better design efficiency. I think the meaning of architecture as Ford uses it has shifted from platform to mean more electrical modules, a/c modules, Powertrain modules etc. and it will still be that way as long as Mustang is on it's own island, and T6 is separate from F-series. Taking a more modular approach to those systems rather than designing a unique one for every vehicle like they have done in the past seems like it would yield the biggest cost savings over platforms, and I recall Jim Farley saying as much in the past. Edited December 4, 2019 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I think the meaning of architecture as Ford uses it has shifted from platform to mean more electrical modules, a/c modules, Powertrain modules etc. and it will still be that way as long as Mustang is on it's own island, and T6 is separate from F-series. Taking a more modular approach to those systems rather than designing a unique one for every vehicle like they have done in the past seems like it would yield the biggest cost savings over platforms, and I recall Jim Farley saying as much in the past. FWD unibody is an architecture. RWD unibody is an architecture. Commercial vehicles (vans) is an architecture. BOF Truck is an architecture. BEV is an architecture. There are various platforms and models within those architectures so it's not all just C2 or CD6 for unibody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) Moral of the story, "Architecture" is a nebulous term that doesn't really mean what people think it does...and that's the point really since it sounds more progressive that it needs to be. They are primarily consolidating on fewer new platforms and sharing systems more efficiently. Weirdly, shared platform products where not that good at sharing parts, I really had no idea they were using so may different part designs on the same platforms. C2 is really doing most of the heavy lifting at Ford, it's scaling to more segment classes than we've seen before, but it's also fairly industry standard at this point. Ford as a whole is skeptical of flexible platforms. Edited December 4, 2019 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Moral of the story, "Architecture" is a nebulous term that doesn't really mean what people think it does...and that's the point really since it sounds more progressive that it needs to be. They are primarily consolidating on fewer new platforms and sharing systems more efficiently. Weirdly, shared platform products where not that good at sharing parts, I really had no idea they were using so may different part designs on the same platforms. I remember a quote (can't remember who said it) that said they were using 15 different wheel hubs across the entire lineup. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 On 12/2/2019 at 7:11 PM, T-dubz said: I wouldn’t mind more cuvs with a sedan shape. One of my favorite recent concepts was the skoda vision. I think it’s one of the best implementations of the coupé style cuv. These are not going to age well. The proportions are all out of whack. You get the worst of both worlds - lack of utility with the sedan shape, and poor handling with the crossover ride height. That's why it worries me when Ford talks about "white space" CUV's that have a sedan shape....it's the answer to the question that nobody asked. Just give us sedans and CUV's and allow consumers to make a choice on whether handling or utility is more important to them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 6 hours ago, mustang84isu said: That's why it worries me when Ford talks about "white space" CUV's that have a sedan shape....it's the answer to the question that nobody asked. Just give us sedans and CUV's and allow consumers to make a choice on whether handling or utility is more important to them. The thing is that for all this fussing about handling, that is far down the list for the vast majority of drivers...I've never met a situation driving my wife's Escape on a road that it felt unsafe for me to do what I want it to do. The vast majority of drivers can barely operate their vehicle, so asking them to drive it at the razors edge of its handling capabilities is asking alot and they are far more likely going to crash it before they even get to that point. The point your missing is that Ford wants to build a product that is unique/desirable in the eyes of the customer so they don't have to discount it in some shape or form. They are going after more niche but profitable markets-Going after Jeep with the Bronco Family and the Fusion whitespace vehicle will be aimed at Suburaus since they more or less own the AWD wagonish market. Quote 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The thing is that for all this fussing about handling, that is far down the list for the vast majority of drivers...I've never met a situation driving my wife's Escape on a road that it felt unsafe for me to do what I want it to do. The vast majority of drivers can barely operate their vehicle, so asking them to drive it at the razors edge of its handling capabilities is asking alot and they are far more likely going to crash it before they even get to that point. The point your missing is that Ford wants to build a product that is unique/desirable in the eyes of the customer so they don't have to discount it in some shape or form. They are going after more niche but profitable markets-Going after Jeep with the Bronco Family and the Fusion whitespace vehicle will be aimed at Suburaus since they more or less own the AWD wagonish market. My wife and I bought an Edge Titanium a couple years ago as her new daily driver. She was previously a Corolla owner. She has a harder time seeing out of it and seeing over the hood and doesn’t like parking it because she can’t tell where the lines are. Also, this may just be how the Edge’s suspension is set up, but it is not the most sure-footed vehicle over bumps and corners—my MKZ and even her Corolla had better ride quality on the terrible roads around my area. Long story short, she wants to go back to a sedan for her next vehicle…and Ford will have nothing to offer. And I’ve always driven sedans and Ford will have nothing to offer in the spring when I’m looking at another vehicle (besides the dead-man-walking Fusion and MKZ, and I’m not interested after hearing some of the de-contenting that is going on with 2020 models). Handling may not matter to the majority, but it does matter to some. Some people like having a trunk. Some people like a lower seating position. Some people like the better rear visibility out of a sedan. A few extra MPG may not seem like a big deal, but it does add up over time. I've seen a few comments that Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials are driving this move away from sedans. What is fashionable now may not be fashionable in 10 years, especially with Gen Z who have way different thought processes than even Millennials. They’re almost becoming the anti-Millennial generation. Ford is giving up on 1/3 of the market that buys cars now, and data has proven that orphaned buyers usually defect to other brands, so we will likely see more permanent market share loss. I did a quick excel spreadsheet, and Ford'st post 2008 market share peaked in 2011 at 16.67% and has been steadily declining every year since then, currently sitting at 14.12% YTD. So for years, Ford has been saying that we want to right size the business by cutting unprofitable models and segments, with the reasoning that fewer models and more efficiency will improve margins. Yet the facts so far do not bear this out; Ford's post-'08 operating margin peaked in Q1 of 2011 at 10.03%, and has steadily declined since then to 1.05% as of Q3 2019. Gross and net margins also peaked around 2011 and have been steadily decreasing since then. I'm not an accountant to really analyze deep into why this is happening, but clearly Ford is doing something wrong here and this is part of the reason Wall Street is so bearish on them. It's just interesting that despite all the cutting of models and brands throughout the years, and more focus on SUVs, that margins have never improved like they were supposed to. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/F/ford-motor/profit-margins Edited December 6, 2019 by mustang84isu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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