Jump to content

None






rmc523

SK Innovation loses U.S. battery trade case but gets temporary OK to sell to Ford, VW

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, slemke said:

But where are the raw materials coming from?

 

All over the globe, as is the case for all lithium ion battery manufacturing plants. Raw materials and components used at the SK Innovation Georgia facility are sourced from North and South America, Europe, Australia, Africa, and Asia (primarily South Korea).

Edited by rperez817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

Can a mod merge these two threads?  No need for responses in two spots to the same topic.

 

Done!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, slemke said:

Need to thin it out and make some nice furniture.  I mean carbon containment devices.  Any walnut?

You're making a bit of a joke here but, as I'm sure you intended, not entirely. What kind of trees lock up carbon? Young, growing trees. What kind of forests no longer lock up much additional carbon (or might even be net emitters, as they age)? Old growth forests. So purely from a carbon sink standpoint it's best to both plant new forests where deforestation has taken place in the past and to thin out ancient trees from old growth forests and allow more growing room for newer trees.

Edited by Gurgeh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

You're making a bit of a joke here but, as I'm sure you intended, not entirely. What kind of trees lock up carbon? Young, growing trees. What kind of forests no longer lock up much additional carbon (or might even be net emitters, as they age)? Old growth forests. So purely from a carbon sink standpoint it's best to both plant new forests where deforestation has taken place in the past and to thin out ancient trees from old growth forests and allow more growing room for newer trees.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/how-old-trees-help-climate-1.4252888

 

Quote

The study found that the older a tree is, the better it absorbs carbon from the atmosphere. In fact, the research suggests that almost 70 per cent of all the carbon stored in trees is accumulated in the last half of their lives.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Farley has hinted that Ford is looking at building battery capability, and might have an annoucement later this year. Why not invite VW in as an investment partner, then partner up with the Japanese or Korean battery manufacturer of their choosing, and (with the extra investment from VW) build a large scale battery plant that can supply both Ford (OAC and trucks) and VW (Chattanooga) initially, with perhaps a provision for a Ford buyout of VW in later years when Ford will need to extra batteries as its sales of EVs grow. That would seem a win for all parties involved. Maybe the investment in Solid Power will be ready for prime time by then.

Edited by Harley Lover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

This isn't good.  I don't see LG backing down.


Exactly.  That’s making Ford very nervous.  It’s not common for a CEO to intervene publicly like Farley did (unless you’re keyboard warrior Musk) unless it will have a dramatic impact on your future products. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Done!


Tried to do it last night but got an error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, FR739 said:


Exactly.  That’s making Ford very nervous.  It’s not common for a CEO to intervene publicly like Farley did (unless you’re keyboard warrior Musk) unless it will have a dramatic impact on your future products. 

 

They stated that they have a 2-4 year buffer to make other arrangements. Like it was stated before, might be a good idea for Ford and VW to build their own batteries in the US. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

They stated that they have a 2-4 year buffer to make other arrangements. Like it was stated before, might be a good idea for Ford and VW to build their own batteries in the US. 

 

Ford has a four year buffer, VW has two years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

They stated that they have a 2-4 year buffer to make other arrangements. Like it was stated before, might be a good idea for Ford and VW to build their own batteries in the US. 

That might alleviate supply constraints, but they would still need to license the IP and secure the raw materials to make the cells.

Easier to second source the battery cells just like any other part.  The dispute will get settled.  They always do.  If not Ford has 4 years to find a new supplier and by then they will probably want a different battery anyway. 
 

From the corporate documents SK published, it seemed like these batteries may be a step ahead of the LG batteries.  LG is upset that their engineers went to a competitor to finish up the work started at LG.  Whatever evidence of what the engineers brought with them sounds like it was destroyed.  SK claims it was only general knowledge of what they were working on so that they could hire the right people from LG.  Part of the blame needs to go on LG for not keeping the engineers and scientists happy at work and not looking for another job or at least make it very difficult for them to work at a competitor.  Non compete clauses exist for a reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I hear right, that Farley is  calling for  Biden to intervene?

 

This is another supplier shit storm that Ford could do without........

Edited by jpd80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

This is another supplier shit storm that Ford could do without........

 

Yes sir jpd80. Ford has its hands full just trying to figure out how to launch an all new or redesigned model without its own shit storm of delays, quality issues, and cost overruns.

 

Hopefully the SK Innovation case will convince Ford executives to do battery manufacturing in-house with a different JV partner ASAP. Jim Farley said he was open to that possibility back in November. Now that Ford is "all-in" with BEV, there's no reason to hesitate any further. Ford CEO says carmaker now eyes making own EV batteries | Reuters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir jpd80. Ford has its hands full just trying to figure out how to launch an all new or redesigned model without its own shit storm of delays, quality issues, and cost overruns.

 

Hopefully the SK Innovation case will convince Ford executives to do battery manufacturing in-house with a different JV partner ASAP. Jim Farley said he was open to that possibility back in November. Now that Ford is "all-in" with BEV, there's no reason to hesitate any further. Ford CEO says carmaker now eyes making own EV batteries | Reuters

Always wise to second source if you can.  Still no guarantee that Ford won’t pick another turkey of a supplier to partner with.  Something to consider is whether the leaders have exclusive supply agreements on certain technology.  Ford may have been forced to go with a riskier supplier in order to get a technology advantage.  Let’s see if a settlement is reached quickly.  I’m guessing it will be resolved before the BEV f150 is launched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, slemke said:

I’m guessing it will be resolved before the BEV f150 is launched.

 

Yes sir slemke. As mentioned earlier, BEV F-150 is the most important new product launch for Ford in the 21st century. I'm confident that Jim Farley and other Ford executives will do whatever it takes to ensure that any supplier issues for that vehicle are worked out prior to Job 1. 

 

As the tagline from Apollo 13 said, "Failure is not an option"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir slemke. As mentioned earlier, BEV F-150 is the most important new product launch for Ford in the 21st century. I'm confident that Jim Farley and other Ford executives will do whatever it takes to ensure that any supplier issues for that vehicle are worked out prior to Job 1. 

 

As the tagline from Apollo 13 said, "Failure is not an option"

 

Failure will drive Ford straight into the arms of VW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Failure will drive Ford straight into the arms of VW.

Not as long as Bill Ford is around.  After that, I’m not so sure.  Are there any other family members interested in running the company or do they just want to cash out?  The lack of a dividend is crimping their style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the factor that I'm sure Ford is thinking about is the rate of innovation in battery tech. Ford can delay investment in building batteries in house by a few years to see how the tech evolves but if Farley wants to get to his 100% goal by 2030, I think Ford will need to build a substantial portion of the batteries in-house to ensure supply consistency. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, bzcat said:

One of the factor that I'm sure Ford is thinking about is the rate of innovation in battery tech. Ford can delay investment in building batteries in house by a few years to see how the tech evolves but if Farley wants to get to his 100% goal by 2030, I think Ford will need to build a substantial portion of the batteries in-house to ensure supply consistency. 

 

I think that's why we haven't seen Ford invest heavily in their own battery production yet.  If solid state batteries are as close as they supposedly are, and offer the large improvements over current tech, then it'd be a waste of money to pour a bunch into current tech for it to only be obsolete when solid state arrives.

 

I really don't know enough about the tech of either type of battery to comment on it, nor the timeline of solid state, but Ford doesn't want to get caught with their pants down and have to immediately change course once they get battery tech online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, bzcat said:

One of the factor that I'm sure Ford is thinking about is the rate of innovation in battery tech. Ford can delay investment in building batteries in house by a few years to see how the tech evolves but if Farley wants to get to his 100% goal by 2030, I think Ford will need to build a substantial portion of the batteries in-house to ensure supply consistency. 

 Ford is invested in Solid Power, who is very close to automotive scale solid state batteries: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/12/19/solid-power-louisville-colorado-battery-electric-vehicle/

 

The company said it is now producing 20 amp-hour (Ah) multi-layer solid state lithium metal batteries. The 330 Wh/kg, 22-layer cells have higher energy density than any commercially available lithium-ion battery manufactured today according to the company. It says it expects its batteries to exceed 400 Wh/kg by 2022.

That’s great news, but here’s the exciting part. Solid Power solid state cells can be manufactured at commercial scale using industry standard lithium-ion roll-to-roll production equipment. The 20 Ah cells are currently being validated by Solid Power’s automotive partners, including Ford and BMW. Other investors in the company include Hyundai, Volta Energy, Solvay, and Samsung. Solid Power has already shipped more than 400 prototype solid state cells to external parties for independent performance validation and expects to begin the formal automotive qualification process with even larger capacity solid state battery cells in early 2022.

 

The part I bolded is key: if I understand it correctly, the tech would allow existing equipment to be used to manufacture these solid batteries, meaning Ford could move on a battery plant now, and still upgrade to solid batteries later.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/11/solid-state-batteries-theyre-everywhere-theyre-everywhere/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the people bitching about VW-its not like VW is in the best of shape either..they've had to pay out billions of dollars in fines for Dieselgate and where "forced" into making BEVs and paying for an electrification network in the US as part of those fines.

 

In the grand scheme of things, what will wind up happening is that VW will provide a BEV platform for Ford that will be used in CD and smaller products, while Ford is providing mid sized Truck and Van EVs that they will share with VW. 

 

Ford will stay with their core strengths (F-series, Vans, Bronco, mid/large CUVs) and VW will stay with theirs, which are smaller products in the CD and below range. Its a mutual project that will help both companies stay healthy going forward.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

For the people bitching about VW-its not like VW is in the best of shape either..they've had to pay out billions of dollars in fines for Dieselgate and where "forced" into making BEVs and paying for an electrification network in the US as part of those fines.

 

Both Ford and Volkswagen are now heading in the right direction with their respective strategies going "all in" with electric vehicles. The collaboration between VW and Ford is a good business arrangement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 Ford is invested in Solid Power, who is very close to automotive scale solid state batteries: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/12/19/solid-power-louisville-colorado-battery-electric-vehicle/

 

 

 

 

The part I bolded is key: if I understand it correctly, the tech would allow existing equipment to be used to manufacture these solid batteries, meaning Ford could move on a battery plant now, and still upgrade to solid batteries later.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/11/solid-state-batteries-theyre-everywhere-theyre-everywhere/

 

That's interesting.  If true, then it could make sense for them to jump on their own production.

 

Farley's been changing quite a few things "right away", so it's possible they're working on something that they're just not ready to announce yet.

Edited by rmc523

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/12/2021 at 9:07 PM, slemke said:

Wind barely gets a mention


The situation in Texas has set wind energy back decades. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fuzzymoomoo said:


The situation in Texas has set wind energy back decades. 

It will be turned into a 'political issue' ala climate change, and any negatives will be immediately decried as 'non believers'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×