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bzcat

First Ford MEB EV takes shape with MACH E inspired design

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9 hours ago, slemke said:

At this point I’m not confident in Ford’s decision to go all in on EVs. 

 

Confidence should build for investors, employees, and customers as more Ford BEV products start production over the next few years, and as Ford's commitment to 100% electric passenger cars and light trucks by 2030 in Europe eventually spreads to the whole company in all regions where it does business.

 

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I have a Bronco on order.  It will be the last ICE I buy.  Im even worried I will get hosed when time comes to trade it in.  

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1 hour ago, Gnostic said:

I have a Bronco on order.  It will be the last ICE I buy.  Im even worried I will get hosed when time comes to trade it in.  

You could always lease it and get a guaranteed buy back price.

I'm betting that Ranger and Bronco will get a PHEV engine option down the line.

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15 hours ago, slemke said:

Meanwhile, Toyota is expanding their West Virginia engine plant.  At this point I’m not confident in Ford’s decision to go all in on EVs.  We will see in 10 years if it pans out, was an expensive mistake, or an empty promise to boost the stock price and get better credit terms.

That's a decision that helps Toyota now and for the rest of this decade, there's more opportunities

for selling hybrids and PHEVs now, getting buyers used to electrification while battery tech matures.

Toyota's plan means that it can switch most of its ICE vehicles over to hybrid and PHEVs in the next 

few years and slowly edge towards BEVs but all manufacturers are going in the same direction.

 

I like Ford's plan because it has a mix of hybrids and BEVs while keeping ICEs for now but clearly, 

Ford will be evolving towards more BEV passenger and commercial vehicles by the end on of the 

decade. Ford talks up it's BEV plans but roll out is going to be slow in the next five years

Edited by jpd80

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22 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I don't see any reason why that might not happen, but I'd expect at least 80% of CUVs that Ford sells in the US to be BEVs by the start of the next decade. 

Not unless they’re priced similarly to ICE CUVs. That’s a huge switch in less than 9 years. As has been mentioned, there are a lot of customers who won’t be able to charge at home. The switch isn’t off to a very good start - customers aren’t exactly beating the doors down to buy Mach E’s. Meanwhile, the Bronco Sport and Bronco demand is off the charts. Cost, the question of battery availability, poor range, slow charging, insufficient grid capacity, and resistance to change by the customer are all issues that will likely slow the changeover from ICE to electric. 

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6 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

Not unless they’re priced similarly to ICE CUVs. That’s a huge switch in less than 9 years. As has been mentioned, there are a lot of customers who won’t be able to charge at home. The switch isn’t off to a very good start - customers aren’t exactly beating the doors down to buy Mach E’s. Meanwhile, the Bronco Sport and Bronco demand is off the charts. Cost, the question of battery availability, poor range, slow charging, insufficient grid capacity, and resistance to change by the customer are all issues that will likely slow the changeover from ICE to electric. 

By the end of the decade there won't be any straight ICE vehicles to buy, everything will be either hybrid or

 more likely PHEV so the cost comparison to BEV is going to be much closer than today..

 

Also, battery technology should be way better in the next five to ten years, it's like looking back at 2011 from today

Edited by jpd80

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3 hours ago, Gnostic said:

I have a Bronco on order.  It will be the last ICE I buy.  Im even worried I will get hosed when time comes to trade it in.  

Could work the other way. If governments force automakers to quit making ICE vehicles ahead of the drop in demand for said vehicles, demand for your traditionally-powered used Bronco might be high. That's assuming, of course, that used vehicles get grandfathered in.

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13 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Could work the other way. If governments force automakers to quit making ICE vehicles ahead of the drop in demand for said vehicles, demand for your traditionally-powered used Bronco might be high. That's assuming, of course, that used vehicles get grandfathered in.

 

Agreed!  I could see prices on certain vehicles rise a great deal after the demise of ICEs!  Barrett Jackson/Mecum prices could rise even higher!!  

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I'm betting that Ranger and Bronco will get a PHEV engine option down the line.

A leaked document indicated that this new drivetrain would consist of an electric motor paired with Ford’s 2.3L EcoBoost I-4gasoline engine to produce a combined 270 kW (362 horsepower) and 680 Nm (501 pound-feet) of torque.”

https://fordauthority.com/2021/02/2023-ford-ranger-phev-confirmed-for-next-gen-model/

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57 minutes ago, 02MustangGT said:

A leaked document indicated that this new drivetrain would consist of an electric motor paired with Ford’s 2.3L EcoBoost I-4gasoline engine to produce a combined 270 kW (362 horsepower) and 680 Nm (501 pound-feet) of torque.”

https://fordauthority.com/2021/02/2023-ford-ranger-phev-confirmed-for-next-gen-model/

I heard a whisper about this just over two years ago and was suggested as the "Raptor Engine module", 

the business case for Apex Bronco didn't work so set aside, then resubmitted using three T6s 

was approved.....it was my impression that it  was the hybrid engine but could be PHEV.

Edited by jpd80

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11 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Confidence should build for investors, employees, and customers as more Ford BEV products start production over the next few years, and as Ford's commitment to 100% electric passenger cars and light trucks by 2030 in Europe eventually spreads to the whole company in all regions where it does business.

 

No, confidence will build when the demand for BEVs materializes.  A large supply mandated by government and no demand at profitable prices will result in huge losses/bankruptcy  for companies.  Other than Tesla, demand for BEVs has been so so at best.  We’ll see how that changes over the next 5-10 years.

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On 2/17/2021 at 12:04 PM, bzcat said:

Ford is converting the Cologne plant which is building Fiesta now to build MEB EVs.

 

Production of the first MEB model similar in size to VW ID.3 is expected to start in 2023 and it will take the shape of CUV. Expect it to slot in between Puma and Kuga.

 

Article mentions it is influenced by the MACH E but the front clip aside, I see more puma in the rendering than MACH E.

 

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/354315/ford-fiesta-plant-build-new-mini-mustang-mach-e-electric-car-2023

 

New%20Ford%20baby%20electric%20car.jpg

 

New%20Ford%20baby%20electric%20car-3.jpg

 

This little advertising ditty shows a silhouette that supports this illustration (although the long hood seems closer to MME):

 

burlappcar-ford.jpg

Edited by Harley Lover

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On 2/17/2021 at 7:03 PM, justins said:

Mach E-Fluent?

 

Mustang Mach-E-cosport

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On 2/18/2021 at 3:59 PM, pffan1990 said:

 

 

I was speaking about the 'Sport' name in general where people had gotten confused at first thinking it was just a sport appearance package such as used on the Explorer's XLT trimline rather than separate model like the old 2-door Explorer Sport. Or a trimline like Fusion Sport. But yeah, it does seem like Ford likes having people thinking the Bronco Sport is the Bronco. The Mach-E name is brilliant because it recognizes the old Mach 1 trimline name but with E to denote electric, as part of the second name after Mustang to show it's a separate model of the Mustang (as the Sport is separate of Bronco). To show that both smaller variants are the 'inspired' versions of the originals.

That's probably because they weren't seperate models.

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I miss my Escape XLT-Sport. The roof rack was cool and handy. 
 

I wonder if Mutang or Mach-E is the brand. Escort Mach-E?

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1 hour ago, sullynd said:

I miss my Escape XLT-Sport. The roof rack was cool and handy. 
 

I wonder if Mutang or Mach-E is the brand. Escort Mach-E?

Thats an interesting point.

The Mustang Mach E was a rescue of the off course C-Max EV but it's clear that the "Mustang" name was used

to rehabilitate the project and sell the vehicle at higher prices than otherwise possible. If it had been called Mach E,

I doubt many would have been enthused as much as they are by the name Mustang Mach E.

 

So, Escort Mach E as a name for the new compact? Sure, why not. It will probably sell well in Europe.

The first new BEV for Cologne is a reset of vehicle needs and pricing  for Europe and possibly, the first BEV out of Oakville.

You can see the plan starting to unfold, Cologne and Oakville will be the two hubs sharing MEB based Ford's while  the

US sticks to larger, own design and Rivian based vehicles. While it is a mass roll out, I think that Ford's timetable is still 

slow enough to allow people to get used to the idea that their next Ford could be a BEV while giving advances in battery 

technology time to filter through. Existing platforms can roll to hybrids to cater for those who want to stick with ICE for now.

 

 

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3 hours ago, probowler said:

That's probably because they weren't seperate models.

The Explorer may not have been separate models per se but there was a time when there were three bodystyles. The regular Explorer for the 4-door, Explorer Sport for 2-door, and then Explorer Sport Trac for 4-door pickup. I guess I should have said bodystyles instead of models regarding the Explorer. So there was a short-term confusion later on when it became just one Explorer since only 4-door SUV was offered and they started offering the Sport appearance package for the XLT trimline.

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20 hours ago, slemke said:

No, confidence will build when the demand for BEVs materializes.  A large supply mandated by government and no demand at profitable prices will result in huge losses/bankruptcy  for companies.  Other than Tesla, demand for BEVs has been so so at best.  We’ll see how that changes over the next 5-10 years.

With respect, no manufacturer has really challenged Tesla in the past, the only vehicle that comes close is the Mach E 

but I suspect that the true litmus test for Ford will be the BEV F150 arriving next year. Along with that, there's a lot of 

opportunity for selling hybrids, they're gravy on existing ICE sales and introduce those buyers to the benefits of going 

electric, they also impart the feeling that ICE buyers aren't being left behind.

 

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21 hours ago, slemke said:

No, confidence will build when the demand for BEVs materializes. 

 

The demand for sophisticated, well designed BEV is there and has been there. But incumbent automakers haven't been serious about them until very recently, with most past BEV products from those companies focusing more on regulatory compliance than on technical and design excellence. So for incumbent automakers the issue is more about supply (too few appealing BEV products right now) than about demand.

 

Mustang Mach-E, Ford's MEB based BEV mentioned in this thread, and BEV F-150 represent a complete change in direction at Ford regarding electric vehicles. These products should be the very definition of "sophisticated, appealing, well designed BEV". Once these vehicles start mass production, and Ford does a good job marketing them (which I'm sure they will), any issues on the demand side will take care of themselves.

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5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

The demand for sophisticated, well designed BEV is there and has been there. But incumbent automakers haven't been serious about them until very recently, with most past BEV products from those companies focusing more on regulatory compliance than on technical and design excellence. So for incumbent automakers the issue is more about supply (too few appealing BEV products right now) than about demand.

 

Mustang Mach-E, Ford's MEB based BEV mentioned in this thread, and BEV F-150 represent a complete change in direction at Ford regarding electric vehicles. These products should be the very definition of "sophisticated, appealing, well designed BEV". Once these vehicles start mass production, and Ford does a good job marketing them (which I'm sure they will), any issues on the demand side will take care of themselves.

The demand is limited and seems to be only Tesla.  They have what 2-3% market share?  Subaru gets that.  Mazda gets that.  So far, it is a niche being propped up by government incentives and venture capital.  Bronco was oversold overnight.  Mach e, not so much.  The fact that Ford set the residual on the Mach e as low as it is, tells me they aren’t confident in the demand.  We’ll see.  I might buy one in a couple years.  Possibly used if the residual estimate turns out to be correct.  They look like decent commuter cars.

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47 minutes ago, slemke said:

The demand is limited and seems to be only Tesla.  They have what 2-3% market share? 

 

About 1.5% for U.S. & Canada combined, just under 1% in Europe and China. Tesla remains far ahead of the incumbent automakers in the design, engineering, and marketing of BEV. But the incumbents are finally starting to catch up.

 

2021 marks an inflection point. The commitments of Volkswagen and Ford to go "all in" with BEV, the entry of new EV startups such as Rivian, Lordstown Motors, Lucid, etc. combined with government policies in Europe and elsewhere promoting ZEV and eventually banning the sale of new ICE powered vehicles means that both demand and supply for BEV will skyrocket in the next few years.

 

tesla-sales-market-share-2020.png

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21 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

About 1.5% for U.S. & Canada combined, just under 1% in Europe and China. Tesla remains far ahead of the incumbent automakers in the design, engineering, and marketing of BEV. But the incumbents are finally starting to catch up.

 

2021 marks an inflection point. The commitments of Volkswagen and Ford to go "all in" with BEV, the entry of new EV startups such as Rivian, Lordstown Motors, Lucid, etc. combined with government policies in Europe and elsewhere promoting ZEV and eventually banning the sale of new ICE powered vehicles means that both demand and supply for BEV will skyrocket in the next few years.

 

tesla-sales-market-share-2020.png

You made my point, though.  Tesla is a niche player.  Their profits aren’t huge.  They rely on government subsidies and venture capital to survive.  Lots of money propping it up so, short selling doesn’t work.  If you have data on people actually desiring the electric cars that can be built and not “unicorns” that are only vapor ware please share.  I may change my mind.  The last one I saw basically said people would take an electric car if it was given to them, not that they would pay more for one because it was desirable.

 

Tesla hit a sweet spot with the Model 3 that drastically increased sales.  In my area it has replaced the BMW 3 series as the look at me status symbol.  I just don’t think that market is much bigger than it currently is.  A year or two of Mach e sales will be necessary to see what trend there is.  Same with the BEV F150.  Maybe Ford has internal data proving you are correct.  I just won’t believe all in on BEV is the correct choice until I see some profitable sales materialize.  I think the “All in” is a marketing sales pitch to prop up the stock price and get better finance terms along with government subsidies.  Government compliance mandates may lead to an all BEV future, but it won’t be profitable if there is no customer buy in.  It is evidence of customer buy in that I’m looking for.

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53 minutes ago, slemke said:

If you have data on people actually desiring the electric cars that can be built and not “unicorns” that are only vapor ware please share.  

 

Consumer Reports and UCS did a survey in April 2019 regarding electric cars. ConsumerReports-UnionofConcernedScientists-2019-EV_Survey-7.17.19.pdf

 

Highlights.

"The electric vehicle market may be poised for accelerating growth, according to a new survey of prospective car buyers, and consideration of getting electric vehicles is fairly consistent across regions and income groups.

The survey, conducted by Consumer Reports (CR) and the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), shows that 63 percent of prospective car buyers in America have some interest in electric vehicles. Breaking this down, 31 percent would consider one for their next purchase, 27 percent would consider one at some point down the road, and 5 percent say they are definitely planning on buying or leasing one for their next vehicle. This later number would mark a big escalation in electric car purchases in the U.S., which made up about two percent of new car purchases in 2018.

“Automakers and dealers have made little to no effort to market electric cars in the U.S., and yet this survey shows that Americans have widespread interest in them,” says Shannon Baker-Branstetter, manager of cars and energy policy for Consumer Reports. “Car buyers across the economic spectrum are interested in electric cars, but automakers and dealers are not providing consumers with enough information and selection to meet this demand.”

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10 hours ago, slemke said:

You made my point, though.  Tesla is a niche player.  Their profits aren’t huge.  They rely on government subsidies and venture capital to survive.  Lots of money propping it up so, short selling doesn’t work.  If you have data on people actually desiring the electric cars that can be built and not “unicorns” that are only vapor ware please share.  I may change my mind.  The last one I saw basically said people would take an electric car if it was given to them, not that they would pay more for one because it was desirable.

 

Tesla hit a sweet spot with the Model 3 that drastically increased sales.  In my area it has replaced the BMW 3 series as the look at me status symbol.  I just don’t think that market is much bigger than it currently is.  A year or two of Mach e sales will be necessary to see what trend there is.  Same with the BEV F150.  Maybe Ford has internal data proving you are correct.  I just won’t believe all in on BEV is the correct choice until I see some profitable sales materialize.  I think the “All in” is a marketing sales pitch to prop up the stock price and get better finance terms along with government subsidies.  Government compliance mandates may lead to an all BEV future, but it won’t be profitable if there is no customer buy in.  It is evidence of customer buy in that I’m looking for.

 

Even then it'll be hard to truly gauge with how production constrained they are 50k production this year, with half of that going overseas.....so it'll be interesting to see if they get around that 25k mark this year or not.  They're around 250 I think so far.

Edited by rmc523

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5 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Even then it'll be hard to truly gauge with how production constrained they are 50k production this year, with half of that going overseas.....so it'll be interesting to see if they get around that 25k mark this year or not.  They're around 250 I think so far.

 

Ford's Vehicle Locator shows 1,075 Mach-E's either in production, in transit or in stock. 

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