2024 FORD EXPLORER SPIED WITH CHINESE COUNTERPART’S FEATURES

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

There is no such thing as lucrative when you’re competing on price with 8 or more competitors especially Nissan, Hyundai and Kia.  Considering published margins from Ford and other companies it’s reasonable to think a $30k family sedan or crossover only nets about $1500 profit.  If you then have to put $2K cash on the hood you’re losing money.  
 

I understand your point that a uniquely styled 2 row crossover would have a more unique market like Bronco Sport but that’s really hard to do outside of the boxy off road segment.  The bigger point is it’s probably far riskier than other things Ford has in the hopper.
 

So if Ford just flees the segment whenever competition increases, what are they going to do now that trucks are rapidly becoming some of the most fiercely competitive types of vehicles out there? Most established truck makers are expanding their offerings with things like maverick rivals, brands like Kia and Hyundai are jumping into the truck scene for the first time, and there are at least half a dozen ev startups gunning to introduce trucks of their own. Some of those will fail, but I could see a couple of them making it to market. 

 

If Ford just runs from the fight, they're doomed. That's the issue with product development, lucrative areas generate a lot of profit for a brand. But then they inevitably attract a lot of competition, because that sub-set of the market is highly profitable. Then everyone starts slashing prices, and all of a sudden, you're losing money instead of raking it in. Then the cycle starts all over again. 

 

Valid point about two row unique crossovers. For some reason, people only label them as passionate lifestyle products when they're rugged and boxy. Makes zero sense to me. Turning the escape into something with sex appeal seems like a long shot to me, but it's worth a shot. The best thing ford's done these last few years is taking models that should be boring on the surface, and giving them that x-factor. Maverick and mach-e are prime examples of cars that could have been phoned in, but actually blew everyone away. 

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

So if Ford just flees the segment whenever competition increases, what are they going to do now that trucks are rapidly becoming some of the most fiercely competitive types of vehicles out there? Most established truck makers are expanding their offerings with things like maverick rivals, brands like Kia and Hyundai are jumping into the truck scene for the first time, and there are at least half a dozen ev startups gunning to introduce trucks of their own. Some of those will fail, but I could see a couple of them making it to market. 

 

If Ford just runs from the fight, they're doomed. That's the issue with product development, lucrative areas generate a lot of profit for a brand. But then they inevitably attract a lot of competition, because that sub-set of the market is highly profitable. Then everyone starts slashing prices, and all of a sudden, you're losing money instead of raking it in. Then the cycle starts all over again. 

 

Valid point about two row unique crossovers. For some reason, people only label them as passionate lifestyle products when they're rugged and boxy. Makes zero sense to me. Turning the escape into something with sex appeal seems like a long shot to me, but it's worth a shot. The best thing ford's done these last few years is taking models that should be boring on the surface, and giving them that x-factor. Maverick and mach-e are prime examples of cars that could have been phoned in, but actually blew everyone away. 

They’re not just exiting a market - they’re choosing to build a different product with better ROI.  If you don’t have a better product then you stick with what you have and make the best of it.  
 

Trucks - especially Ford trucks - are the opposite of commodity and buyers are paying premiums even with competition.  Cheaper entries have tried but failed.  That won’t change any time soon.

 

They killed minivans, sedans and hatchbacks yet they were #1 in sales just a few months ago with higher than normal profit margins.  I’d say they know exactly what they’re doing even though it conflicts with some consumers personal desires,’ 

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

They’re not just exiting a market - they’re choosing to build a different product with better ROI.  If you don’t have a better product then you stick with what you have and make the best of it.  
 

Trucks - especially Ford trucks - are the opposite of commodity and buyers are paying premiums even with competition.  Cheaper entries have tried but failed.  That won’t change any time soon.

 

They killed minivans, sedans and hatchbacks yet they were #1 in sales just a few months ago with higher than normal profit margins.  I’d say they know exactly what they’re doing even though it conflicts with some consumers personal desires,’ 

I will say Ford does trucks than basically any other brand, and they're clearly making bank off their current trucks. But it just seems short sighted how Ford, and other American brands, keep reverting back to their reliance on trucks and large suvs, while essentially neglecting their other product offerings. We've seen that bite domestic brands before when economic conditions shift. 

 

Not to mention, the argument could be made that the reputation of Ford trucks isn't what it used to be. I'm concerned the current ongoing, widespread, and severe reliablity issues with Ford trucks will gradually erode their loyal fanbase if left unresolved. If Ford wants to go back to mainly focusing on trucks, I can understand why. But they need to ensure their trucks are the best in the world if they want to do that, especially when it comes to longevity.

[edselford]

Does anyone know the timing for 2023 Explorer dealer orders to switch over to 2024 design?

2024 refinements look pretty good!

edselford

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, edselford said:

Does anyone know the timing for 2023 Explorer dealer orders to switch over to 2024 design?

2024 refinements look pretty good!

edselford

 

Dealer orders do not "switch over" to the following Model Year. Dealers must submit new orders for all order types for the next Model Year. 

[silvrsvt]

On 7/1/2023 at 12:36 AM, DeluxeStang said:

I will say Ford does trucks than basically any other brand, and they're clearly making bank off their current trucks. But it just seems short sighted how Ford, and other American brands, keep reverting back to their reliance on trucks and large suvs, while essentially neglecting their other product offerings. We've seen that bite domestic brands before when economic conditions shift. 

 

Not to mention, the argument could be made that the reputation of Ford trucks isn't what it used to be. I'm concerned the current ongoing, widespread, and severe reliablity issues with Ford trucks will gradually erode their loyal fanbase if left unresolved. If Ford wants to go back to mainly focusing on trucks, I can understand why. But they need to ensure their trucks are the best in the world if they want to do that, especially when it comes to longevity.

 

Your still reading this the wrong way....Ford isn't going to come out with commoditized products just to compete in a segment.

 

Easiest way to explain this is say if the Escape went away-it would be "replaced" by the Bronco Sport (tough/off road c segment product) and the Maverick (C-sized SUV/truck) which both don't have much in the way of competition. 

The Mach E currently is an EU compliance vehicle based on ICE C platform. I can see it "going" away, but I'm also sure that the next gen Mustang EV that is coming will be a coupe, sedan/crossover and maybe something else all on the same platform that  will be its replacement. 

 

[MKX1960]

On 6/22/2023 at 9:48 AM, T-dubz said:

I like the new interior (bottom pic) but I wonder why they wasted the time and money to design a new one when the Chinese version looks much better. I guess they don’t want to encroach too much on the aviator.

I like the screen design in the upper pic. It's close to the new Nautilus. 

[MKX1960]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:36 PM, DeluxeStang said:

Respect,  but I kinda dig 'em. They find a good balance between clean,  but unique imo. 

I like them also. The wheels I dislike the most are the ones on the 24 Nautilus with Jet package. Putting shiny bits defeats the whole purpose of the Jet package.

[Gurgeh]

6 hours ago, MKX1960 said:

I like the screen design in the upper pic. It's close to the new Nautilus. 

That's the thing. The Chinese Explorer has a full-bore Lincoln interior. The U.S. one, other than the big tablet screen jutting up from the center vents, looks to me looks like an outdated pick-up truck interior. But maybe that's just me.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Gurgeh

[rmc523]

13 hours ago, MKX1960 said:

I like them also. The wheels I dislike the most are the ones on the 24 Nautilus with Jet package. Putting shiny bits defeats the whole purpose of the Jet package.

Hm, those are my favorite wheels of them all.

 

But I understand your point of the silver parts of them.

[tbone]

8 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

That's the thing. The Chinese Explorer has a full-bore Lincoln interior. The U.S. one, other than the big tablet screen jutting up from the center vents, looks to me looks like an outdated pick-up truck interior. But maybe that's just me.

I’m hoping for the upper pic to at least be optional.  That arrangement appears to be a little less than the Aviator as I thought the Aviator was supposed to be full coast to coast.  This one has a vent stuck at the end, which would give it some differentiation between the two models. 

[AM222]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:14 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

Your still reading this the wrong way....Ford isn't going to come out with commoditized products just to compete in a segment.

It looks like Ford is quitting the 2-row mainstream segments (at least in North America) because it just isn't as competitive as it used to be in these segments. 

The Evos would have been a good in-direct CUV replacement for the 2-row Edge. Too bad that didn't happen.

Glad though Ford is adopting some of Ford China's more interesting "Progressive Energy in Strength" design language for its North American and Euro models. (Escape refresh, Explorer refresh, all-new Euro Transit/Tourneo Custom etc)

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by AM222

[akirby]

9 hours ago, AM222 said:

It looks like Ford is quitting the 2-row mainstream segments (at least in North America) because it just isn't as competitive as it used to be.

Edge has always been competitive.  Escape holds its own.  It’s about other vehicles having more profit potential.

[silvrsvt]

Not to mention the Edge demographic market is being served by the Mach E and Bronco, and maybe the Bronco Sport to an extent. 

 

Some sales figures for the segments

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-midsize-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-small-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

[92merc]

9 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Not to mention the Edge demographic market is being served by the Mach E and Bronco, and maybe the Bronco Sport to an extent. 

 

Some sales figures for the segments

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-midsize-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-small-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

Those lists are kinda messed up Ford wise.  Bronco Sport is shorter than the Escape, but under the "mid-sized".  But Escape is under small?

And there's no way I'd switch from an Edge to a Bronco.  Not even close to the same vehicle.

 

If Escape is dropped, I'll consider a Bronco Sport.  If not, I guess RAV4 it'll be.  Assuming I can still get either in a non-electric.  Hybrid would be fine.  I'll be in the market in the next 2-3 years.

Edited July 11, 2023 by 92merc

[silvrsvt]

9 minutes ago, 92merc said:

And there's no way I'd switch from an Edge to a Bronco.  Not even close to the same vehicle.

 

Don't confuse what you want with way the actual market is either

[HotRunrGuy]

I would have to question the GCBC numbers, I found a similar error on their Maverick numbers, where they are taking Ford's 2nd quarter values and using them JUST for June.   88,456, really?

 

HRG

[akirby]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Don't confuse what you want with way the actual market is either

Take your own advice.  The actual market for Edge is not going away.  Edge owners don’t want something smaller or larger - that’s why they buy Edges.  And most probably don’t want a BEV.  They also do t want a Bronco.  Some will migrate to other offerings but this will leave an up filled gap in the lineup not filled by others.  And from a business standpoint that’s fine as long as there are other things to replace the revenue.

[92merc]

6 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Don't confuse what you want with way the actual market is either

I never made any statements regarding the market.  I was just stating what I want in my next vehicle and how it's looking less likely Ford will be able to fulfill the wish for my next vehicle.

 

I tried to keep my statements basic and personal opinion only.

Edited July 11, 2023 by 92merc

[silvrsvt]

27 minutes ago, akirby said:

Take your own advice.  The actual market for Edge is not going away.  Edge owners don’t want something smaller or larger - that’s why they buy Edges.  And most probably don’t want a BEV.  They also do t want a Bronco.  Some will migrate to other offerings but this will leave an up filled gap in the lineup not filled by others.  And from a business standpoint that’s fine as long as there are other things to replace the revenue.

 

I never said the market was going away either, just that the demographic data for the Edge and Bronco overlap quite a bit and those buyers might be interested in a Bronco or Mach E instead.

 

[akirby]

5 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I never said the market was going away either, just that the demographic data for the Edge and Bronco overlap quite a bit and those buyers might be interested in a Bronco or Mach E instead.

 

As a long time Edge, MKX and Nautilus owner and after moderating Edge/MKX/Nautilus forums and Facebook groups since 2008, I think that’s a very small percentage of buyers.

[rmc523]

22 hours ago, tbone said:

I’m hoping for the upper pic to at least be optional.  That arrangement appears to be a little less than the Aviator as I thought the Aviator was supposed to be full coast to coast.  This one has a vent stuck at the end, which would give it some differentiation between the two models. 

 

I think Aviator's refresh just gives in the bigger 13.1" center screen that Navigator and Corsair now have.  Could be wrong, though.

 

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Not to mention the Edge demographic market is being served by the Mach E and Bronco, and maybe the Bronco Sport to an extent. 

 

Some sales figures for the segments

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-midsize-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-small-suv-sales-figures/#quarterlysales

 

I'll push back on that.  I personally don't think there's as much overlap between those 3 as you'd think. 

 

Mach E is too low for Edge buyers, IMO.  

Bronco is in general too rugged/"unrefined" (vs. a more car/"vault" like vehicle)

Bronco Sport far too small, not to mention the boxy look.

 

I think it's a mistake walking away from the segment, but we'll see what they do long term.  Clearly they thought the same for Lincoln by keeping Nautilus.

[silvrsvt]

56 minutes ago, akirby said:

As a long time Edge, MKX and Nautilus owner and after moderating Edge/MKX/Nautilus forums and Facebook groups since 2008, I think that’s a very small percentage of buyers.

 

But the issue with that is your stuck in an echo chamber of owners that often the most vocal ones crowd out the other voices that may not speak up. 

 

Ultimately isn't not as quite cut and dry as we might think it be. 

[akirby]

28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But the issue with that is your stuck in an echo chamber of owners that often the most vocal ones crowd out the other voices that may not speak up. 

 

Ultimately isn't not as quite cut and dry as we might think it be. 

Huh?  These aren’t debates.  These are Edge owners saying this is why I bought an Edge.  They wanted more room than Escape or Bronco Sport.  And that echoes my experience going from edge to escape and also test driving a Corsair before buying a Nautilus.  They don’t need or want 3 rows.  They don’t go off-road or want boxy styling.  That’s the demographic.

[T-dubz]

The edge sport/ST has been one of my favorite ford SUVs. The size was perfect. The ST package looked great and made it look more sporty than anything else out there. I still think it looks good to this day.