Expedition Refresh

[AM222]

40 minutes ago, Dlcorbett said:

The sequoia belt line looks higher than the expys, but the rear windows have a larger surface area and the belt line stays flat, where the expys rises up a bit.

Windows might not be that much bigger but the beltline looks lower. 



You'll notice it inside, the relation of the seat to the window/ beltline. (I used the current gen Expedition as an example since the 2025 is a reskin) Toyota (top photos), Ford (bottom photo)

Edited May 30 by AM222

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Maybe it’s just me but that gives me a strong AMC Pacer vibe…..

 

Great, now I'm not gonna be able to unsee it 😂. 

[Dlcorbett]

O I never had a problem seeing out my expy or navi so I guess it doesn't bother me at all.

[Harley Lover]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Again, it may just be me but I prefer the higher belt line on both the ford and GM SUVs.  To me it looks more upscale and solid especially in black.  But of course that’s just personal preference.

 

Agree, I don't think my taste necessarily represents a majority view - there's just something about this gen's higher belt line that makes the body appear too 'fat' and causes the whole production to look like it's on stilts - to me. Ultimately the market decides.

[akirby]

23 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Agree, I don't think my taste necessarily represents a majority view - there's just something about this gen's higher belt line that makes the body appear too 'fat' and causes the whole production to look like it's on stilts - to me. Ultimately the market decides.

I can definitely understand that and I’m not sure either one matters all that much to buyers as a whole..  For every buyer that doesn’t like one or the other there is another that does.

[rmc523]

20 hours ago, tbone said:

I understand your point, but it’s concerning me that this feels like a Fusion refresh.  I think it is the flat belt line that needed to be changed in order to give it a new appearance, otherwise it’s the same body.  

 

Oh come on, you're not seriously comparing and equating this type and level of change:

 

 

To this type of change:

 

 

because of a character line, are you?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

Oh come on, you're not seriously comparing and equating this type and level of change

because of a character line, are you?

Yep.  Because the side profile is apparently the only thing that matters.

[tbone]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

Oh come on, you're not seriously comparing and equating this type and level of change:

 

 

To this type of change:

 

 

because of a character line, are you?

 

17 minutes ago, akirby said:

Yep.  Because the side profile is apparently the only thing that matters.

I concede it’s not quite Fusion level refresh but, the character line is a distinctive characteristic and I think it should have gone away. It’s pretty difficult to miss considering the broad side profile.  To me it feels like a substantial refresh, but I certainly recognize the changes to the front and rear.  
 

That line is not a common characteristic between the First Gen Expedition and the forthcoming model, so not something reflective of heritage.  It will have been present for 7 years upon the release of the new model, which means that it’ll probably be around for another seven years at the rate they have updated the Expedition.  
 

Ultimately I’m tired of it and wanted it to go away. Does that mean the new expedition will be garbage and I won’t like it, certainly not, but I would like it better.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, tbone said:

 

I concede it’s not quite Fusion level refresh but, the character line is a distinctive characteristic and I think it should have gone away. It’s pretty difficult to miss considering the broad side profile.  To me it feels like a substantial refresh, but I certainly recognize the changes to the front and rear.  
 

That line is not a common characteristic between the First Gen Expedition and the forthcoming model, so not something reflective of heritage.  It will have been present for 7 years upon the release of the new model, which means that it’ll probably be around for another seven years at the rate they have updated the Expedition.  
 

Ultimately I’m tired of it and wanted it to go away. Does that mean the new expedition will be garbage and I won’t like it, certainly not, but I would like it better.

Maybe next time just say I personally don’t like it rather than making it sound like the redesign is a complete failure.

[tbone]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Maybe next time just say I personally don’t like it rather than making it sound like the redesign is a complete failure.

Well, I should have been more clear.  The redesign is not to the level of the class leaders, so I’m tired of the half measures if your intent is to be #1. 

Edited May 30 by tbone

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, tbone said:

The redesign is not to the level of the class leaders, so I’m tired of the half measures if your intent is be #1. 

That’s your opinion and extremely subjective.  And the rest of us probably don’t agree or at least not to the same degree.  Sounds like you just want change for the sake of change.

 

And I don’t think anything short of a $10k price cut is going to take market share from GM at this point.  It’s a large loyal owner base.

[tbone]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

That’s your opinion and extremely subjective.  And the rest of us probably don’t agree or at least not to the same degree.  Sounds like you just want change for the sake of change.

 

And I don’t think anything short of a $10k price cut is going to take market share from GM at this point.  It’s a large loyal owner base.

Yes, it is my opinion, but one thing that is not subjective is the main body of the vehicle is the same.  That’s a fact and it’s seven years running, which IMO is too long.
 

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, and I’ll leave it at that.  

[akirby]

9 hours ago, tbone said:

Yes, it is my opinion, but one thing that is not subjective is the main body of the vehicle is the same.  That’s a fact and it’s seven years running, which IMO is too long.
 

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, and I’ll leave it at that.  

I highly doubt it bothers 99% of buyers who see a new front end, rear end and new interior.  And different windows.

 

Take the lower half of the side profile of expys, navs, Tahoes and suburbans and they all look pretty much the same.  

[sullynd]

14 hours ago, akirby said:

And I don’t think anything short of a $10k price cut is going to take market share from GM at this point.  It’s a large loyal owner base.

Thats just it. The GM triplets are to this market what the F-Series is to trucks. This refresh is likely enough to not lose current customers, but isn’t going to move the needle. 
 

Would be nice if there were a BEV version (Thunder?)

[akirby]

54 minutes ago, sullynd said:

Thats just it. The GM triplets are to this market what the F-Series is to trucks. This refresh is likely enough to not lose current customers, but isn’t going to move the needle. 
 

Would be nice if there were a BEV version (Thunder?)

I think even if they went all in with new designs and powertrains they’re only going to gain a few points of market share which wouldn’t be nearly enough to pay for it.  So they’ll do the best they can on a budget.

[joseodiaga4]

But why is so difficult to gain market share in this segment? 
Is The plan just to maintain the market share and do nothing else? 

[Dlcorbett]

The gm suvs are cultural icons at this point.  They design them with enough boldness to make a statement, but with enough restraint to keep them from being gaudy.  They are never truly overdesigned.  They also offer so many different wheel options to make them feel customizable.  Not only that, since there is 3 variants, they just need to make small changes to help the customer feel theres a variant to fit their lifestyle.  Every rental company has a fleet, every livery has a fleet, every law enforcement dept has a fleet.   They are everywhere, you can't escape them.  Also, they are constantly used in media, and they show very well.  This is why celebrities and entertainment/production companies keep buying and renting them.  

 

After the 2nd gen, it never really felt like ford fully invested in the expy and nav.  Even with the fourth gen, they only feel just good enough, so there's a feeling of a lack of refinement or polish. This is probably because, for the most part, all the major development is done for the f150, and after release, they make their changes to accommodate the suv such as interior design and seats.  Then they sit on the product for too long, allowing gm to adjust their product, giving the impression of an always fresh product.

 

I've noticed, ford innovates the segment with the expy, but never polishes the truck. Every time a review or comparison would happen with a revamped suv, there is always a comment about the expy lacking a bit in refinement.  The other brands, specifially gm, fine tune what ford put out, which makes their suvs feel more solid and complete:

 

1st gen expy gave an suv a removable 3rd row in a smaller pkg(smaller than suburban) and air suspension-cue redesigned gm and toyota

2nd gen gave fs suv minivan like third row room, folding third row, and independent suspension-cue nissan armada and redesigned dodge durango and sequoia

3rd gen didn't innovate as much as it was really just a polished up 2nd gen, but they did push out the turbo engine in a mainstream product.

4th gen pretty much set the tone for every fs suv that's current bar the nissan armada and IS the benchmark and standard of every competitor out.

Edited May 31 by Dlcorbett

[rmc523]

14 hours ago, tbone said:

Yes, it is my opinion, but one thing that is not subjective is the main body of the vehicle is the same.  That’s a fact and it’s seven years running, which IMO is too long.
 

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, and I’ll leave it at that.  

 

I'll agree that I'd have preferred them to give new door stampings (openings could've stayed) that changed the look a bit, but I also think that buyers will see the new front, rear, and black c-pillar and not even notice the doors being the same.

[akirby]

5 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

But why is so difficult to gain market share in this segment? 
Is The plan just to maintain the market share and do nothing else? 

It’s not that you can’t do it.  The problem is it’s really expensive either in terms of frequent design changes and extensive options or lowered prices.  And it’s not a huge market to begin with.  The juice just is t worth the squeeze.

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

But why is so difficult to gain market share in this segment? 

I tend to find the larger and more expensive the vehicle is, the more loyal the consumer base is. If you look at a bronco sport or maverick, a lot of those customers are new to Ford completely. But by the time you get to f-series, expedition, the suburban, etc, you're dealing with a lot of buyers who own those vehicles because it's what they grew up with. 

 

I believe part of it has to do with the level of commitment required. A maverick or BS is a relatively affordable vehicle, you feel like you can "take a chance" with something new. If that maverick doesn't work out, well it was only 25 grand, and you can easily sell it and find something else. But when you're dropping 70-100 grand on a vehicle, a lot of people want to stick with what they're familiar with, with what they know they already like. The more money you spend, the less you want to risk purchasing something unknown that you could end up hating. 

[tbone]

11 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I'll agree that I'd have preferred them to give new door stampings (openings could've stayed) that changed the look a bit, but I also think that buyers will see the new front, rear, and black c-pillar and not even notice the doors being the same.

We are car people so we are certainly more critical than Joe Public, so I hope you are correct.  I certainly want the new model to be successful.  

 

9 hours ago, akirby said:

It’s not that you can’t do it.  The problem is it’s really expensive either in terms of frequent design changes and extensive options or lowered prices.  And it’s not a huge market to begin with.  The juice just is t worth the squeeze.

Careful with those opinions😉

[SoonerLS]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:35 PM, rmc523 said:

This seems very much like the 2009 F-150 that was "all new" except for using the same cab and doors - they've kept the doors/roof and everything else goes brand new.  Most people won't notice, they'll just see the new front and rear.

The 2009 was all-new except for the powertrains and the visual appearance of the cab and doors--structurally, the cab was different, to meet new rollover standards. That's why they no longer had the B-pillar windows in the '09s (and newer) regular cabs.

[rmc523]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:49 PM, DeluxeStang said:

I tend to find the larger and more expensive the vehicle is, the more loyal the consumer base is. If you look at a bronco sport or maverick, a lot of those customers are new to Ford completely. But by the time you get to f-series, expedition, the suburban, etc, you're dealing with a lot of buyers who own those vehicles because it's what they grew up with. 

 

I believe part of it has to do with the level of commitment required. A maverick or BS is a relatively affordable vehicle, you feel like you can "take a chance" with something new. If that maverick doesn't work out, well it was only 25 grand, and you can easily sell it and find something else. But when you're dropping 70-100 grand on a vehicle, a lot of people want to stick with what they're familiar with, with what they know they already like. The more money you spend, the less you want to risk purchasing something unknown that you could end up hating. 

 

Yeah, I'd agree with this assessment.  I'd also argue that the full size SUVs/trucks are sort of in their own "loyalty" category, whereas other luxury makes in that pricepoint may be more cross shopped (i.e. BMW x7 vs. MB GLS)

 

On 6/1/2024 at 2:04 AM, tbone said:

We are car people so we are certainly more critical than Joe Public, so I hope you are correct.  I certainly want the new model to be successful.  

 

Careful with those opinions😉

 

Yup, I think they'll see the major changes and not notice those things that didn't.

 

13 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

The 2009 was all-new except for the powertrains and the visual appearance of the cab and doors--structurally, the cab was different, to meet new rollover standards. That's why they no longer had the B-pillar windows in the '09s (and newer) regular cabs.

 

Right, I was referring to the visual difference, though, since that's the complaint here - the door skins and cab shape were the same as the '04-08 model.  But the front, bed, and interior (along with under the skin changes) were completely new, so I'm sure 99% of customers didn't notice the door skins being the same.

[Dlcorbett]

I wonder if ford was able to implement the f150s max recline seats into the first and 2nd rows of the new expy.  That would be a dope feature to include.

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, Dlcorbett said:

I wonder if ford was able to implement the f150s max recline seats into the first and 2nd rows of the new expy.  That would be a dope feature to include.

 

Don't think they wouldn't be able to