Deanh Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Our 2005 LS V6 has been a great car mechanically. If it wasn't for the piss poor paint quality that required me to have panels repainted at the dealership (at no cost of course), I would be completely satisfied. Wait, I am satisfied, I walked out the door 4 years ago with a new LS that listed for over $34k for the low price of $22800. and THAT alone is the sole reason some people put the LS and certain body on frame dinosaurs on a pedestal..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 The Lincoln LS was the best car I ever owned, until the MKS There's always something newer and better, and now the MKS EcoBoost is about to come out. When did you buy an MkS? Did you get rid of the MkZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 The LS is the greatest car produced by FoMoCo since the 50's. It's neglect and rejection in favor of cheaper, AWD alternatives by management is well recorded. This board is disproportionately composed of blue-oval flag wavers and Buffalo NY residents who need AWD in a luxury car, but otherwise in the real world the LS is, when remembered today, known as the safest, best car sold this millenia at a Lincoln dealer. No modern V-8 has been on offer otherwise in a car at a Lincoln dealer since the Mark VIII shut down. Turbo AWD V6 Ford's just aren't going to be conquering Lexus/Merc/BMW buyers ANY time soon, but it is the way forward for the brand today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_the_limey Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) It was an expensive platform to begin with. Jaguar engineers didn't like it because they wanted Ford to run their company like a charity (and who can blame them? Jaguar had been run like a charity for full 30 years before that). Execs at Lincoln had visions of turning DEW98 into a Sigma style platform, with products based off it. However, the vehicle was far too different from what Lincoln customers expected, and there wasn't sufficient anticipated demand to justify ongoing investment when other passenger car programs were far more important (CD3 & D3) to Ford's overall success. And as mentioned before, Jag engineers bristled at sharing ANYTHING significant with other Ford products. So, basically, it was a good car in a vacuum, but: 1) Jaguar people didn't like it 2) Lincoln dealers didn't know what to do with it 3) Ford execs couldn't justify ongoing investment in it. I can't believe the assertions you've just come out with about Jag. What do you know about the dissention in the ranks of Jaguar engineers about Ford ownership, did you take a poll? Were you there? Very soon after Jaguar was bought the old management was swept aside and Ford management was brought in (starting with Bill Hayden), and this continued with Ford using it as a creche for upcoming Ford managers until it's sale. Jaguar was never run like a charity before Ford's purchase, it was starved of investment for decades by British Leyland because of all the other mess that was going on with the other brands, and then when privatised in 1984 it barely received anymore investment until the Ford purchase. Probably because of this, before it's purchase, it managed to be profitable and on a shoestring develop the XJ40 saloon (the basis of the 90's X300 XJ and X100 XK) and XJ41/42 "F" Type which was later to become the Aston Martin DB7, part of the reason Ford overpaid for Jaguar. I believe you would find that most Jag engineers would be grateful for what Ford did in the investment that went in and the quality improvements that came (Bill Hayden is especially revered). I also believe that the Jag engineers were very pleased with the DEW98 because for it's intended purpose (a proper luxury car with the features required i.e. aluminium double wishbone suspension all-round, stiff chassis, double bulkhead construction for NVH isolation) it was spot on. What Jaguar engineers were dubious about was the de-contenting of the AJ-V8 for the LS (increased amount of development costs to produce 2 effectively different engines) and the 5-speed auto, which just didn't have the shift quality required. What many were dubious about was the 'X' type project that was imposed upon it by Dearborn (Nasser et al) and Jaguar's Ford appointed management (Scheele et al) to chase Lexus/Acura/Infiniti. The 'X' type drastically increased the production capacity again 18 months after releasing the 'S' type into a market that wasn't ready for it. Think of it this way there are only a limited number of people at the time (say 100000 a year, the adage about needing 2 Jags "one to use and one for the shop" still fresh in the minds of the buying public) and the few Jaguar buyers that were available were given the choice between cheap one and a more expensive one. They buy the cheap one cannibalising sales of the more expensive one but they were not selling enough of the cheaper one to justify the investment in the new factory at Halewood and at the same time ruined the profitability of the more expensive one! Fucking recklessness beyond belief! Now you've said before that Jaguar engineers treated the 'X' type like a "ginger haired step child", but there were plenty glad of the work and the fact that quality wise it has been excellent throughout it's production and actually still a decent car rather suggests that the engineers did their job properly. The other criticism that "Jaguar engineers bristled at sharing ANYTHING" is yet another assertion, how do you know it wasn't the other way? Where is the evidence? Secondly, because they were being run directly by Ford (unlike Volvo was until recently with the appointment of O'Dell), there was fuck all they could do about it! I'll tell you an interesting fact about the new 5.0 V8 designed and developed by Jaguar inhouse, it has 100mm borecentres and 99mm lateral headbolt pitch, which is EXACTLY the same as the Modular V8. It also has DAMB and a 92.5mm bore, which is EXACTLY the same as D35. A coincidence? I think not! If Ford NA engineering wanted the centrally mounted DI combustion system developed by Jag (in conjunction with FoE) they could have had it easily. What is for certain the people responsible for the problems of Jaguar after it's dramatic expansion are the same mould of people responsible for the problems of Ford stemming from the 90's and early 00's. Edited January 17, 2009 by jon_the_limey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 The LS is the greatest car produced by FoMoCo since the 50's. It's neglect and rejection in favor of cheaper, AWD alternatives by management is well recorded. This board is disproportionately composed of blue-oval flag wavers and Buffalo NY residents who need AWD in a luxury car, but otherwise in the real world the LS is, when remembered today, known as the safest, best car sold this millenia at a Lincoln dealer. No modern V-8 has been on offer otherwise in a car at a Lincoln dealer since the Mark VIII shut down. Turbo AWD V6 Ford's just aren't going to be conquering Lexus/Merc/BMW buyers ANY time soon, but it is the way forward for the brand today. you really think BMW drivers cross-shop Lincolns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Not anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 you really think BMW drivers cross-shop Lincolns? Some do, you see them traded in on dealer lots. Twin turbos no less! http://apps.dealerconnection.com/dealers/s...lerPACode=09158 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02MustangGT Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 After seeing the interior in that 335i, I'm trying to figure out why there are complaints about interiors from other manufacturers. Yeah, the materials "might be" high quality, but the design is boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 What many were dubious about was the 'X' type project that was imposed upon it by Dearborn (Nasser et al) and Jaguar's Ford appointed management (Scheele et al) to chase Lexus/Acura/Infiniti. The 'X' type drastically increased the production capacity again 18 months after releasing the 'S' type into a market that wasn't ready for it. Think of it this way there are only a limited number of people at the time (say 100000 a year, the adage about needing 2 Jags "one to use and one for the shop" still fresh in the minds of the buying public) and the few Jaguar buyers that were available were given the choice between cheap one and a more expensive one. They buy the cheap one cannibalising sales of the more expensive one but they were not selling enough of the cheaper one to justify the investment in the new factory at Halewood and at the same time ruined the profitability of the more expensive one! Fucking recklessness beyond belief! . I agree 100% from the US standpoint ! The "X" sold very well for a couple of year, helped by high residuals on the initial leases. I think a lot of US customers were disappointed in their "X" because, like all Mondeao vehicles of the area, they had poor rear seat leg and head room. Resale was so bad on "X" Types in the Metro Detroit area, that they were the only car I know that was re-leased a second time around, with a full extended warranty. The "X" Type cheapened the brand. Thank God they never brought the "estate car" to the US. It would have killed the brand for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The bottom line: Ford did not leverage the economies of scale of that platform. Look at the CTS/Sigma platform for GM. They came out with a CTS Sedan, the STS, and the SRX. They are on the second generation CTS with a new sport wagon and coupe to follow. Ford just let the LS languish- like most of the Lincoln models- where it was stale in the marketplace. What should have been done? A stretched LS to replace the continental, a smaller LS as a entry-level model, and perhaps a coupe to replace the Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The bottom line: Ford did not leverage the economies of scale of that platform. Look at the CTS/Sigma platform for GM. They came out with a CTS Sedan, the STS, and the SRX. They are on the second generation CTS with a new sport wagon and coupe to follow. Ford just let the LS languish- like most of the Lincoln models- where it was stale in the marketplace. What should have been done? A stretched LS to replace the continental, a smaller LS as a entry-level model, and perhaps a coupe to replace the Mark. all too expensive for the models you quote, that's why Ford didn't do them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 all too expensive for the models you quote, that's why Ford didn't do them. Not too expensive for premium Lincoln vehicles. What killed this plan for more vehicles? The Firestone fiasco. Lincoln's budget was cut overnight by $600M and that forced cancellation of a lot of new vehicles. Not saying it was the right place to cut, but money was a big factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 all too expensive for the models you quote, that's why Ford didn't do them. Jaguar did not want to make any compromises in the platform. Ford did not want to spend the money making the platform flexible. Big mistake. They did get a Thunderbird and Mustang out of it. Too bad they could get more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 They did get a Thunderbird and Mustang out of it. They did not get a mustang out of dew98. They started that way but ended up doing a unique platform that isn't at all related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyChingas Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I have a 2002 Lincoln LS V8 that i absolutely love...picked it up 6 months ago w/ 109,000 miles and has been trouble free. I had different people tell me I was in over my head in buying this car as every single one of them said these Lincolns are very trouble prone. (none of them own an LS or any other Ford for that matter) I always wanted one of these since they came out in 2000 but it had just bought a new Mustang in March of 1999 (which has also been trouble free all of its 126,00 miles). I know its only been 6 months but so far they are all wrong. Overall a great car that many people (especially here in So Cal) dont know about which means I dont see myself coming and going on the road like your typical Toyota owner. Let's put it this way... a co-worker of mine saw my car and asked what brand of car it was. I said ''it's a Lincoln". She said '' oh.. they're still around?".....sad huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Jaguar did not want to make any compromises in the platform. Ford did not want to spend the money making the platform flexible. Big mistake. They did get a Thunderbird and Mustang out of it. Too bad they could get more. A Thunderbird and a Jaguar. And Johnny, I hope your experience is different than mine - but my '02 T-Bird is the 2nd most unreliable car I have ever owned. Not counting what was covered under warrantee, I have averaged $198.00 / mo. out of pocket on repairs since I took delivery of the car brand new in March of '02. It has settled down somewhat the last 40,000 miles or so though - so the fact that yours is a moderately high-mileage vehicle may actually be a positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 New version of the AJ-V8 engine. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/12/detroit...-on-bonneville/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Eh, I'm no dentist, so I'm not going to argue. I'm just pointing out that we have gotten lazy as a society. Nah, we're not lazy, not at all... :stats: The Lincoln LS was the best car I ever owned, until the MKS There's always something newer and better, and now the MKS EcoBoost is about to come out. When did you buy an MkS? Did you get rid of the MkZ? I was going to ask the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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