jcartwright99 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 I like the T top thing it's got going on. It looks like the offspring of an H3 and Avalanche, which I guess is just ok. I know am not the target demographic for this but I am starting to find the battle of extreme electric truck vaporware a bit absurd. IF/WHEN these come out, lets not pretend they will be going off road. They will be valeted at a nice restaurant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: What is the market for this? Cybertruck from Tesla. Everyone is chiming in about how pricy it is and will it beat Ford to the market and so on, but this is to do battle with Tesla. The Silverado and any bev version of that will be priced in line with the F150. The "luxury trims" of GMC outsell Cadillac, Audi or BMW and have higher transaction prices. There is possible space for this. Citation for this: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a34345059/gmc-now-sells-more-luxury-vehicles-than-cadillac/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, atomcat68 said: The "luxury trims" of GMC outsell Cadillac, Audi or BMW and have higher transaction prices. There is possible space for this. Citation for this: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a34345059/gmc-now-sells-more-luxury-vehicles-than-cadillac/ From the linked article: Its upmarket Denali and AT4 trims now outsell all of Cadillac, with sales volumes on the way up. And though some may doubt whether these count as luxury brands, AN notes that the average transaction prices of Denali and AT4 GMCs are $57,218 and $53,989, higher than Audi or BMW. So, the Denali and AT4 trims are outselling Cadillac, but not Audi or BMW. The transaction prices do beat those of Audi and BMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70 Stang Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, atomcat68 said: Cybertruck from Tesla. Everyone is chiming in about how pricy it is and will it beat Ford to the market and so on, but this is to do battle with Tesla. The Silverado and any bev version of that will be priced in line with the F150. The "luxury trims" of GMC outsell Cadillac, Audi or BMW and have higher transaction prices. There is possible space for this. Citation for this: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a34345059/gmc-now-sells-more-luxury-vehicles-than-cadillac/ A little further proof that sedans don't help luxury sales either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, CurtisH said: From the linked article: Its upmarket Denali and AT4 trims now outsell all of Cadillac, with sales volumes on the way up. And though some may doubt whether these count as luxury brands, AN notes that the average transaction prices of Denali and AT4 GMCs are $57,218 and $53,989, higher than Audi or BMW. So, the Denali and AT4 trims are outselling Cadillac, but not Audi or BMW. The transaction prices do beat those of Audi and BMW. So they watched Ford and what they did with the F150 vs a Lincoln and made it work too. All the more reason I think Caddy should just die. But GM being GM, will keep it around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) This new GMC Hammer is going to be marketed to the same people driving their kids to school in a Mercedes G-wagen or Range Rover. Or basically, the same kind of people that used to commute in a Hammer H2 before. $100k is very reasonable sum (perhaps a bit on the low side) to the target customers. There will also be a SUV version later to go with this initial pickup version. And based on what I saw, this is a substantive truck... meaning it is a solid effort and packed with good engineering and with performance to backup the look. People already spend up to $80k for a F-150 Raptor so I don't understand why some people here feign surprise at a $80-$110k GMC truck. Edited October 21, 2020 by bzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, bzcat said: And based on what I saw, this is a substantive truck... meaning it is a solid effort and packed with good engineering and with performance to backup the look. People already spend up to $80k for a F-150 Raptor so I don't understand why some people here feign surprise at a $80-$110k GMC truck. No question that this Hummer is an impressive vehicle. I just question why GM spent the time and money engineering a BEV designer-truck for the wealthy. I wish they would have spent their considerable engineering expertise by designing a BEV that cost $30,000 that everybody could afford to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, mackinaw said: No question that this Hummer is an impressive vehicle. I just question why GM spent the time and money engineering a BEV designer-truck for the wealthy. I wish they would have spent their considerable engineering expertise by designing a BEV that cost $30,000 that everybody could afford to buy. That's more my point. This thing has a very limited market due to price and being a BEV. I don't see it moving the bottom line at all. Seems like more of a PR stunt. I'd be more impressed with a BEV Silvererra at half the cost (don't think it can get to $30K because of the extra battery capacity required by a heavy truck with a decent payload). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 37 minutes ago, akirby said: That's more my point. This thing has a very limited market due to price and being a BEV. I don't see it moving the bottom line at all. Seems like more of a PR stunt. I'd be more impressed with a BEV Silvererra at half the cost (don't think it can get to $30K because of the extra battery capacity required by a heavy truck with a decent payload). I think this thing is a big nothingburger, however, you're the one who always points out Ford's wisdom in moving away from low margin/high volume products (i.e. cars) to high margin, but in some cases lower volume products (Lincoln) - and of course, there are many other examples. What GM are doing here is no different - they have applied strong engineering effort and output to this product, and priced it such that they will make good money on each unit. I won't be a bit surprised to see much of what it contains make its way to the Sierra, by which time the Hummer will have covered the cost of investment, allowing the Sierra to be priced lower, yet still at a good level of profit. I'm not convinced this will sell, because GM's recent history is littered with engineering 'tour de forces' that failed to sell - Cadillac for the past decade+ has been nothing more than a sinkhole for GM funding, with little to show for the investment save a tarted up Suburban. So all the prognosticators who are convinced this is a slam dunk need to look at GM history in the last decade or so to see that this is not a slam dunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, mackinaw said: No question that this Hummer is an impressive vehicle. I just question why GM spent the time and money engineering a BEV designer-truck for the wealthy. I wish they would have spent their considerable engineering expertise by designing a BEV that cost $30,000 that everybody could afford to buy. That’s called the Bolt and nobody gives a damn:) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: I think this thing is a big nothingburger, however, you're the one who always points out Ford's wisdom in moving away from low margin/high volume products (i.e. cars) to high margin, but in some cases lower volume products (Lincoln) - and of course, there are many other examples. What GM are doing here is no different - they have applied strong engineering effort and output to this product, and priced it such that they will make good money on each unit. I won't be a bit surprised to see much of what it contains make its way to the Sierra, by which time the Hummer will have covered the cost of investment, allowing the Sierra to be priced lower, yet still at a good level of profit. I'm not convinced this will sell, because GM's recent history is littered with engineering 'tour de forces' that failed to sell - Cadillac for the past decade+ has been nothing more than a sinkhole for GM funding, with little to show for the investment save a tarted up Suburban. So all the prognosticators who are convinced this is a slam dunk need to look at GM history in the last decade or so to see that this is not a slam dunk. Maybe this is just a precursor concept vehicle for a BEV Silvererra. But I still think it's too over the top. Too big. Too expensive. Too fast (at the expense of range). I think a Silvererra/F150 sized BEV truck in the $50K-$80K price range with 400+ mile range is the sweet spot. You can give it cool features and make it look unique but it still needs to look and work like a truck. Nobody is better than GM at one hit wonders that fade quickly. Solstice. HHR. ELR. XLR. Ford has done a couple, too but Ford seems to do better planning at a portfolio and brand level as opposed to developing one off concept vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: you're the one who always points out Ford's wisdom in moving away from low margin/high volume products (i.e. cars) to high margin, but in some cases lower volume products (Lincoln) - and of course, there are many other examples. What GM are doing here is no different - they have applied strong engineering effort and output to this product, and priced it such that they will make good money on each unit. The sweet spot for both volume and profit is in the $40K - $70K range. Below $40K your profit margins are usually low. Above $70K your volume starts to drop rapidly. That's why Ford trucks are so successful with both high volume and high margins. I agree this thing will bring some per unit profit but sales volume will be so low it won't bring a lot of revenue. In my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, akirby said: The sweet spot for both volume and profit is in the $40K - $70K range. Below $40K your profit margins are usually low. Above $70K your volume starts to drop rapidly. That's why Ford trucks are so successful with both high volume and high margins. I agree this thing will bring some per unit profit but sales volume will be so low it won't bring a lot of revenue. In my opinion. they’ve openly said this is the first of I think 25 vehicles in the next 3-4 years so there will be plenty of BEV truck options to come. Is it expensive? Yup. Is it Over the top? Maybe yes maybe no but I’m not convinced you need all the crazy trickery of a Raptor or Bronco but those sell or will sell and have a faithful following. GM hasn’t had many one hit wonders since Barrera has taken over and you could call the new Vette somewhat of a niche product that is selling extremely well. if Ford pulled this off we wouldn’t be having this discussion IMO on this board. If GM wants to sell 70-100k of these a year I would be very skeptical but I’d they want to sell this as a halo vehicle and push out 20-30 of these a year and share the platform and tech across other vehicles this will have been mission accomplished. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, kyle said: That’s called the Bolt and nobody gives a damn:) Ha! Totally forgot about the Bolt, which shows you the impact it's made on me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 25 minutes ago, kyle said: if Ford pulled this off we wouldn’t be having this discussion IMO on this board. I think we would. Same criticism would apply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, akirby said: The sweet spot for both volume and profit is in the $40K - $70K range. Below $40K your profit margins are usually low. Above $70K your volume starts to drop rapidly. That's why Ford trucks are so successful with both high volume and high margins. Can't see that price range happening with battery range that the market wants/expects until battery prices come down even more (perhaps that's GM's expectation for their Ultium costs over the next 5 years). The price range you quote is quite close to the Mustang Mach E - no way the much larger and heavier F150 BEV could have the same battery range at the same price point (without sacrifices in other areas of content). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, kyle said: if Ford pulled this off we wouldn’t be having this discussion IMO on this board. .... I'd be complaining. My opinion of course, but I have absolutely no use for designer vehicles for the wealthy. Give me a BEV "Model T," something designed for the common man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 2 hours ago, kyle said: That’s called the Bolt and nobody gives a damn:) And that's too bad because Bolt is the best non-Tesla BEV passenger car available under $40k new (prior to incentives) in the U.S. market. Like other incumbent automakers, GM still expends too much effort marketing ICE powered vehicles which is why Bolt didn't get the care and attention it deserves. It looks like GM's attitude is starting to change toward embracing a future that's 100% electric cars and trucks. Hummer EV is a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, mackinaw said: No question that this Hummer is an impressive vehicle. I just question why GM spent the time and money engineering a BEV designer-truck for the wealthy. I wish they would have spent their considerable engineering expertise by designing a BEV that cost $30,000 that everybody could afford to buy. Because the wealthy people buy expensive vehicles. I thought that point is self-evident. GM is in it to make money... it's not Tesla where cost of capital is free. This GMC Hummer basically has the same price range as Escalade ($80k to $110k) so to me it's like asking why GM spent time and money to engineering a designer Escalade for the wealthy. The only difference as far as I can tell is that you have some sort of axe to grind against people buying EV. More affordable EVs are coming. GM is probably working on a dozen of them right now. There is going to be a flood of $50k EV going on sale starting in 2021 from basically every manufacturer. $30k EV is still not profitable, yet. I'm guessing it won't be until after 2025. You can't get there unless we start with wealthy people willing to write checks for $100k EVs. Edited October 21, 2020 by bzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Harley Lover said: Can't see that price range happening with battery range that the market wants/expects until battery prices come down even more (perhaps that's GM's expectation for their Ultium costs over the next 5 years). The price range you quote is quite close to the Mustang Mach E - no way the much larger and heavier F150 BEV could have the same battery range at the same price point (without sacrifices in other areas of content). Agreed. I was speaking in general terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Some of you are out to lunch BTW. The general reception for this truck is overwhelmingly positive. GM will have no problem selling as many as they want to make. And I'm going to say it again in ALL CAPS: $80K STARTING PRICE AND $112,595 FULLY LOADED FIRST EDITION IS NOT EXPENSIVE FOR THE TARGET CUSTOMER. It is in fact cheaper than most of the ICE competition. Mercedes charges a lot more for G63. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 49 minutes ago, bzcat said: $80K STARTING PRICE AND $112,595 FULLY LOADED FIRST EDITION IS NOT EXPENSIVE FOR THE TARGET CUSTOMER. It is in fact cheaper than most of the ICE competition. Mercedes charges a lot more for G63. The $80K version will be available spring 2024. It's October, 2020. Do the math. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 3 hours ago, bzcat said: $80K STARTING PRICE AND $112,595 FULLY LOADED FIRST EDITION IS NOT EXPENSIVE FOR THE TARGET CUSTOMER. It is in fact cheaper than most of the ICE competition. Mercedes charges a lot more for G63. Thank you bzcat sir. For perspective on Hummer EV Edition 1 pricing, the 1995 Hummer H1 that G. Gordon Liddy wrote about in Car and Driver had a sticker price of $71,760, or $122,557 in 2020 U.S. dollars. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141697/a-hardnose-road-tests-a-hummer-archived-test-review/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 23 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Thank you bzcat sir. For perspective on Hummer EV Edition 1 pricing, the 1995 Hummer H1 that G. Gordon Liddy wrote about in Car and Driver had a sticker price of $71,760, or $122,557 in 2020 U.S. dollars. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141697/a-hardnose-road-tests-a-hummer-archived-test-review/ How'd that work out for them? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 4 hours ago, rperez817 said: And that's too bad because Bolt is the best non-Tesla BEV passenger car available under $40k new (prior to incentives) in the U.S. market. Like other incumbent automakers, GM still expends too much effort marketing ICE powered vehicles which is why Bolt didn't get the care and attention it deserves. It looks like GM's attitude is starting to change toward embracing a future that's 100% electric cars and trucks. Hummer EV is a good start. Bolt's success, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with marketing. It's an ugly POS econobox that nobody wants to be seen in with a rubbermaid interior. Have you ever sat in one at an auto show? No amount of marketing can overcome that. Had they wrapped the powertrain in a stylish body that got your attention, they'd be flying off the lots. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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