Jump to content

None






ice-capades

Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?

Recommended Posts

Well what do I know-but I see more late model Fusions running around this area.  But who are we "civilians" to question the product planners.  And as many  have said on this site...Kia? Hyundai, 'yota, Subaru?...They are losing their ass on car sales.  Should be  matter of time and Ford and GM will be the only two standing.  As I have stock in both I should be pleased.😎

 

But I can't help but thinking-what's hot today is forgotten tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They’re not losing money - they’re just not making a lot on sedans.

 

Go look at a Bronco and Ranger prices compared to a $20k Focus with $4K rebates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the jist of that article is that Ford is going to lose sales just for this holiday weekend because 2% points more people are looking at sedans vs a CUV?

 

All that is pointing out to me is that you have a group of people looking to buy the cheapest thing they can find/like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

All that is pointing out to me is that you have a group of people looking to buy the cheapest thing they can find/like.

 

Ford's previous sedans in the U.S. market for the most part were designed for two main groups of customers. 1. Ford loyalists. 2. People who care more about the "deal" than about the car itself.

 

The first group will consider a Ford product that's not a sedan. The second group can always get a used Ford car, resale values on those are very low.

 

 

Edited by rperez817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford's previous sedans in the U.S. market for the most part were designed for two main groups of customers. 1. Ford loyalists. 2. People who care more about the "deal" than about the car itself.

 

The first group will consider a Ford product that's not a sedan. The second group can always get a used Ford car, resale values on those are very low.

 

 

 

Lol.  This statement is stupid.  As if that doesn't represent a vast majority of midsize/sedan buyers.  You really think hundreds of thousands of people buy a Camry because they care about it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

You really think hundreds of thousands of people buy a Camry because they care about it?

 

Yes sir. Camry is a standout in its class for reliability and durability, and also has relatively high resale value. Those things a high priority for customers who choose to buy one. Ford's sedans by contrast had no distinguishing attributes in terms of reliability, safety, value, etc. That caused a downward spiral in which the best Ford could do was try to appeal to Ford "sheeple" customers, beyond that they relied on marketing the "deal" which usually meant big rebates and other sales incentives.

 

Back to the question in the article, no Ford did not make a mistake killing its sedans. Upgrading those cars to be competitive with the best in class would cost a lot and never generate an appropriate return on the capital they would have invest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fusion was best in class when it debuted and Titaniums were just as good as some entry level luxury sedans.  The problem was most people were buying heavily discounted SE models and the higher priced buyers went to CUVs.  It was a great product in the wrong market.  Camry has the winning formula - keep it cheap with minimal updates other than appearance and play the price wars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For one brief period, Ford was selling so many Fusions that it had overflow production at Flat Rock

but after the very modest 2015 makeover, the wheels began falling off as Titanium buyers deserted

Fusion, it was only a short hop from there to Ford bitching about 33,000 ways to order a Fusion.

 

IMO, Ford engineered this from way back, making high series Fusions less appealing compared to

Ford's utilities. While not increasing sales, Ford is clearly hooping a different group of buyers while

unfortunately, casting off its long time car customers. Ford made this into an either/or choice, the

cancellation of San Louis Potosi and putting it's new products at Hermosillo then forced Fusion

and Focus off shore to China. After that, trade tensions and poor clinics put the skids under cars.

 

If recent history with Ranger has taught us anything, its that vehicles once considered dead to

North America can one day, magically turn up like an old long lost friend. I wouldn't count out

sedans from ever returning.

 

Edited by jpd80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that Fusion is the best looking midsize sedan out there and it is a mistake that it is being cancelled.  I can see where Ford dropped the Focus at MAP to build Ranger and Bronco, but the Fusion could have easily been moved to FRAP.  Unfortunately, like GM, Ford listens more to the voices of analists than their customers, and if the vehicle does not have a ten percent profit margin it does not get build.  In the case of Fusion, Ford sees 100 percent of nothing better than 2 percent of something.  Even if Ford could only sell Fusion at cost, it is better for them that a customer is sitting behind the wheel of a Fusion compared to a Malibu, Camry, Accord, or Sonata.  Once a competitor snatches a customer, it is very hard to get them back. 

Edited by Footballfan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, akirby said:

Camry has the winning formula - keep it cheap with minimal updates other than appearance and play the price wars.

 

Camry does have the winning formula, but none of the other things you mentioned about it are true. Camry is not "cheap" (several competitors have lower pricing), the model has been updated 3 times in the past 8 years and is getting a mid cycle refresh for 2021, and Toyota does not engage in price wars. Camry's strong reputation in reliability, comfort, and safety along with improved driving dynamics following the 2018 redesign make it a compelling product and Toyota's marketing focuses on those things.

 

In the midsize sedan market, the fittest (Camry, Accord, Altima) thrive and the weakest (Chrysler 200, Fusion, Malibu) are extinct or will be soon. Competition at its finest.

Edited by rperez817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Camry does have the winning formula, but none of the other things you mentioned about it are true. Camry is not "cheap" (several competitors have lower pricing), the model has been updated 3 times in the past 8 years and is getting a mid cycle refresh for 2021, and Toyota does not engage in price wars. Camry's strong reputation in reliability, comfort, and safety along with improved driving dynamics following the 2018 redesign make it a compelling product and Toyota's marketing focuses on those things.

 

In the midsize sedan market, the fittest (Camry, Accord, Altima) thrive and the weakest (Chrysler 200, Fusion, Malibu) are extinct or will be soon. Competition at its finest.

So what you just said is, build a good one, and people will buy.  And Camry is NOT cheap.  My translation of that is there IS a market for sedans.

Check the box....there is a market for sedans or there isn't!

 

Ford Kool Aid under Hackett says there isn't.

 

What I said earlier......But I can't help but thinking-what's hot today is forgotten tomorrow.

 

And to second JPD80.............

If recent history with Ranger has taught us anything, its that vehicles once considered dead to

North America can one day, magically turn up like an old long lost friend. I wouldn't count out

sedans from ever returning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ford didn't make a mistake when it pulled out of the personal luxury car market when it discontinued the Thunderbird and Cougar after 1997 (yes I know Thunderbird returned a few years later as a 2 seater on DEW98 and Cougar came back as a 2 door Contour), it didn't make a mistake when it pulled out of the minivan market when it discontinued the Freestar and Monterey, and it didn't make a mistake when it pulled out of the station wagon market after the 2007 Focus and 2005 or so Taurus. Segments contract, leaving room for only a few players. I'm not interested myself in a crossover or pickup, but Ford isn't obligated to produce a sedan for me at a loss or minimal profit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Footballfan said:

I think that Fusion is the best looking midsize sedan out there and it is a mistake that it is being cancelled.  I can see where Ford dropped the Focus at MAP to build Ranger and Bronco, but the Fusion could have easily been moved to FRAP.  Unfortunately, like GM, Ford listens more to the voices of analists than their customers, and if the vehicle does not have a ten percent profit margin it does not get build.  In the case of Fusion, Ford sees 100 percent of nothing better than 2 percent of something.  Even if Ford could only sell Fusion at cost, it is better for them that a customer is sitting behind the wheel of a Fusion compared to a Malibu, Camry, Accord, or Sonata.  Once a competitor snatches a customer, it is very hard to get them back. 


What is better for Ford is to have half of those Fusion customers sitting in a Bronco Sport or Maverick or Transit Connect or new Fusion active which have very little competition by comparison.   You also have to consider that keeping a Fusion or a focus would have delayed development of the new vehicles.


It’s just a matter of prioritization of resources.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

So what you just said is, build a good one, and people will buy.  And Camry is NOT cheap.  My translation of that is there IS a market for sedans.

Check the box....there is a market for sedans or there isn't!

 

Ford Kool Aid under Hackett says there isn't.


That’s not true at all.  Ford never said there is no market for sedans.  It’s still 25% of the market.  They said the market is shrinking (true across the board) and they’re investing in other types of vehicles.  If they had no new vehicles to develop we’d still have Fusion and Focus.  And they implied that that there isn’t much profit because the market is saturated and a lot of buyers only buy the cheap versions.

 

And what I meant about Camry being cheap is it’s cheap to produce with only minor tweaks to the platform and powertrains over several generations compared to Fusion which saw a lot of changes and had more features like AWD.  At one time Fusion ATPs were $4K higher than Camry before those buyers moved to Edge.

 

Stop trying to justify sedans because you want one.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you where running a business, what would you rather do:

Compete in a market with roughly 44 different choices with starting prices under 30K that only makes up roughly 30% of the market

 

Or one that has about 30 different choices with starting prices under 30K (often going for more then that when optioned out) that makes up 70% of the market?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ford lost reliability with powershift Focus and it can't compete with Civic and Corolla. Fusion was not a reference of reliability and It was too outdated, the interior looks old. Ford just give up to try to change Focus and Fusion reliability and image. It's sad because Focus and Fusion were good cars with bad transmissions and poor build quality and several recalls. What Ford needs to do is improve build quality and reliability like when Ford change the game with Mondeo mk1 and First gen Taurus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ford made a mistake killing off the Crown Vic/Interceptor. I’ll stand by that statement and weep for the rest of my career. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Camry does have the winning formula, but none of the other things you mentioned about it are true. Camry is not "cheap" (several competitors have lower pricing), the model has been updated 3 times in the past 8 years and is getting a mid cycle refresh for 2021, and Toyota does not engage in price wars. Camry's strong reputation in reliability, comfort, and safety along with improved driving dynamics following the 2018 redesign make it a compelling product and Toyota's marketing focuses on those things.

 

In the midsize sedan market, the fittest (Camry, Accord, Altima) thrive and the weakest (Chrysler 200, Fusion, Malibu) are extinct or will be soon. Competition at its finest.

 

Toyota released the latest version of the Camry with incentives that were generous for a new vehicle. It also sells a fair number of Camrys to rental car companies.

 

If you want to see what sedan sales look like without the maker resorting to generous incentives and fleet sales, look at sales of the new-generation Honda Accord. Nobody can say that the Accord is stale or outdated, and it has received very good reviews. 

Edited by grbeck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, grbeck said:

If you want to see what sedan sales look like without the maker resorting to generous incentives and fleet sales, look at sales of the new-generation Honda Accord. Nobody can say that the Accord is stale or outdated, and it has received very good reviews. 

 

Since people like charts..the Accord has been shrinking 20-30K units a year since its last high in 2014

 

Accord.PNG.dea13148d9694ff658576d4d5df505fb.PNG
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Since people like charts..the Accord has been shrinking 20-30K units a year since its last high in 2014

 

Accord.PNG.dea13148d9694ff658576d4d5df505fb.PNG
 

 

Through August, the best-selling vehicle at Honda has been the CR-V, with 203,762 sold.

 

The Civic is in second place, with 178,570 sold.

 

The Accord is a distant third with 125,142 sold. The Accord has also registered the biggest year-to-year decline of the three, with a 32 percent drop in sales (compared to a 23.4 percent drop for the Civic, and a 20 percent drop for the CR-V). 

Edited by grbeck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Camry's are cheap, at least by me. Toyota dealers ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have cash on the hood in the Chicago area. There is a deal to be had with Camry's. Now, is it as good as a Nissan deal? No, but you are getting a better car. And by better car, I mean a car that gets its moneys worth out of a platform, engine and drivetrain before changing anything. They tend to not make too many changes at once. Sure, it will get a new face/interior refresh and tuning but Camry's usually share a lot of the same things over multiple cosmetic refreshes. Any issues usually get fixed fast and then turn into fairly reliable cars. The price/reliability quotient is high for the most part.  For people who look at cars like an appliance, that beige 4 cylinder Camry is appealing. 

 

BTW, if you want a sedan that only has deals for purchase 1-2 times a year, that would be a Honda Accord. They don't tend to deal very much at all. They tend to offer pretty good leasing  though.

 

Finally, that sedan pie keeps on shrinking year over year. It truly is a race to the bottom, although it will never really disappear fully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

Finally, that sedan pie keeps on shrinking year over year. It truly is a race to the bottom, although it will never really disappear fully.

 

Exactly...thats why people can't see the forest from the trees

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, grbeck said:

 

....

The Accord is a distant third with 125,142 sold. The Accord has also registered the biggest year-to-year decline of the three, with a 32 percent drop in sales (compared to a 23.4 percent drop for the Civic, and a 20 percent drop for the CR-V). 

 

Actually, your chart highlights what I was trying to convey in my post above. The Accord has always been close to the tops in sales. In my opinion, they have the best non luxury mid size sedan.

 

However, why are their sales tanking? They aren't wheeling and dealing. If people are going to pay 30-40k they will just get an SUV. It just goes to show that sedan buyers are mostly value conscious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, jpd80 said:

For one brief period, Ford was selling so many Fusions that it had overflow production at Flat Rock

but after the very modest 2015 makeover, the wheels began falling off as Titanium buyers deserted

Fusion, it was only a short hop from there to Ford bitching about 33,000 ways to order a Fusion.

 

IMO, Ford engineered this from way back, making high series Fusions less appealing compared to

Ford's utilities. While not increasing sales, Ford is clearly hooping a different group of buyers while

unfortunately, casting off its long time car customers. Ford made this into an either/or choice, the

cancellation of San Louis Potosi and putting it's new products at Hermosillo then forced Fusion

and Focus off shore to China. After that, trade tensions and poor clinics put the skids under cars.

 

If recent history with Ranger has taught us anything, its that vehicles once considered dead to

North America can one day, magically turn up like an old long lost friend. I wouldn't count out

sedans from ever returning.

 

 

I still think those clinics failed because of how the vehicle (Focus Active) was being presented - as a "crossover".  I think its traditional target market would've been happy with it.

 

3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Camry does have the winning formula, but none of the other things you mentioned about it are true. Camry is not "cheap" (several competitors have lower pricing), the model has been updated 3 times in the past 8 years and is getting a mid cycle refresh for 2021, and Toyota does not engage in price wars. Camry's strong reputation in reliability, comfort, and safety along with improved driving dynamics following the 2018 redesign make it a compelling product and Toyota's marketing focuses on those things.

 

In the midsize sedan market, the fittest (Camry, Accord, Altima) thrive and the weakest (Chrysler 200, Fusion, Malibu) are extinct or will be soon. Competition at its finest.

 

Altima is only in the picture because they massively dump it into fleets.

 

1 hour ago, RadicalX said:

Ford lost reliability with powershift Focus and it can't compete with Civic and Corolla. Fusion was not a reference of reliability and It was too outdated, the interior looks old. Ford just give up to try to change Focus and Fusion reliability and image. It's sad because Focus and Fusion were good cars with bad transmissions and poor build quality and several recalls. What Ford needs to do is improve build quality and reliability like when Ford change the game with Mondeo mk1 and First gen Taurus

 

Sure the Fusion's interior looks old now because it hasn't been redesigned in 7 years.  It was right up there at the top of the segment until the lackluster refresh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×