2024 Mustang Spied

[ausrutherford]

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

 

May be, but he's right.  Consumer demand isn't driving BEV's, governments and politicians are.

 

And politicians did not drive the conversion from horses to cars to begin with? By saying banning horses in cities like NYC and others did? Or pumping trillions in the highway systems?

 

Or subsidizing the railroad industry before that?

 

Or subsidizing the canal industry before that?

 

Let's stop acting like every major advancement in US transportation was purely market based, because history says otherwise. 

[Trader 10]

19 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

 

And politicians did not drive the conversion from horses to cars to begin with? By saying banning horses in cities like NYC and others did? Or pumping trillions in the highway systems?

 

Or subsidizing the railroad industry before that?

 

Or subsidizing the canal industry before that?

 

Let's stop acting like every major advancement in US transportation was purely market based, because history says otherwise. 

This is an apples to oranges comparison. The examples you list were all new types of industry back when. BEV’s are merely a different form of automobile. A similar change to coal fired locomotives replaced by diesel power in the railroad industry. 

[jpd80]

Maybe a better conversation is why do millions of people struggle with long daily commutes into certain places just to get to work

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe a better conversation is why do millions of people struggle with long daily commutes into certain places just to get to work

 

First one that comes to mind, is better living arrangements-more room in the suburbs vs living down town or cheaper costs. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe a better conversation is why do millions of people struggle with long daily commutes into certain places just to get to work

Much cheaper housing, more room, better schools, lower taxes and FAR less crime, especially violent crime.

 

The better question is why do companies insist on putting their offices downtown instead of in the suburbs?

[jpd80]

52 minutes ago, akirby said:

Much cheaper housing, more room, better schools, lower taxes and FAR less crime, especially violent crime.

 

The better question is why do companies insist on putting their offices downtown instead of in the suburbs?

Exactly my point,  centralised offices only work when most people live nearby and either walk or cycle to work.

Another country I know but our city went through urban renewal decades ago and all the old run down areas became twee to inner city owners who paid big bucks to live there, all the bad crime ended in those areas years ago.

Edited January 27, 2022 by jpd80

[fordmantpw]

13 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

May be, but he's right.  Consumer demand isn't driving BEV's, governments and politicians are.

 

Then why is there a 6 month wait for a Mach E?

Why did Ford have to stop taking reservations for the Lightning?

Why did Ford double their output for electric vehicles?

 

Yes, the government may have played a part in originally bringing them to market, but people aren't lining up to buy these vehicles because the govt. tells them too (and no, the $7500 tax incentive isn't doing it when the price comes out to the same or more than an ICE vehicle after the rebate).

[akirby]

Consumers are driving demand - TO A POINT.  With the current technology and infrastructure I think that point is no more than 15%-20% of the market which is 10 times what they sell today in the US.   No way in hell consumers want 100% BEVs or even close to it now or in the near future.  That’s driven solely by government and environmentalists.

[rperez817]

41 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

Yes, the government may have played a part in originally bringing them to market, but people aren't lining up to buy these vehicles because the govt. tells them too (and no, the $7500 tax incentive isn't doing it when the price comes out to the same or more than an ICE vehicle after the rebate).

 

Yes sir fordmantpw. In the case of upcoming Mustang coupe BEV and Mustang convertible BEV, people will be lining up to buy them because they (along with Mustang Mach-E) will be the best cars in the history of the Mustang nameplate. The superiority of all electric propulsion over ICE powertrains is immediately evident to anyone who experiences a modern, well designed, hi-po BEV.

 

The big issue, as Jim Farley mentioned, will be Ford's ability to build enough of them. And Ford is going all out to make sure that is addressed for all its upcoming BEV.

[rperez817]

55 minutes ago, akirby said:

No way in hell consumers want 100% BEVs or even close to it now or in the near future. 

 

That's true now, but as automakers do their part bringing scores of appealing BEV to market over the next few years, consumer demand for BEV will increase even more. Combine that with government regulations around the world that will ban the production and sale of new ICE powered vehicles from 2030 onward, and it won't be long until new car or light truck = BEV. Ford Mustang included.

Edited January 27, 2022 by rperez817

[DeluxeStang]

Guys, let's get back on topic, anyway, about the s650...

[rmc523]

 

7 hours ago, fordmantpw said:

 

Then why is there a 6 month wait for a Mach E?

Why did Ford have to stop taking reservations for the Lightning?

Why did Ford double their output for electric vehicles?

 

Yes, the government may have played a part in originally bringing them to market, but people aren't lining up to buy these vehicles because the govt. tells them too (and no, the $7500 tax incentive isn't doing it when the price comes out to the same or more than an ICE vehicle after the rebate).

 

Nobody is saying there is no demand for them.  Just that the 100% BEV by arbitrary X date/year is not a consumer-driven natural transition, it's being forced.

 

If BEVs are so great, everyone will eventually transition to them gradually and naturally/voluntarily, and the market should dictate that timeline.

 

 

Turning back to Mustang, since we're seemingly not getting a BEV model for at least another generation (unless Ford has a surprise up its sleeve), a good transition for Mustang (and, IMO all vehicles) would be a hybrid model - people still get their V8, but also some benefits of electrification.  That helps change the mindset of the customers as they're exposed - even partially - to electrification.  Customers embraced EcoBoost engines after discovering what they can do, I'm sure most customers will embrace electrification once they find it can do.....but given the segment, it may take some more convincing.

[Harley Lover]

51 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Turning back to Mustang, since we're seemingly not getting a BEV model for at least another generation (unless Ford has a surprise up its sleeve), a good transition for Mustang (and, IMO all vehicles) would be a hybrid model - people still get their V8, but also some benefits of electrification.  That helps change the mindset of the customers as they're exposed - even partially - to electrification.  Customers embraced EcoBoost engines after discovering what they can do, I'm sure most customers will embrace electrification once they find it can do.....but given the segment, it may take some more convincing.

 

Question: if we stipulate that the most likely Mustang hybrid would be one that uses the same transmission as the F150, will such a vehicle be more of a performance proposition than what the average consumer thinks of when they see the word "hybrid"? Said another way, my impression of the F150 powerboost is that it doesn't do to much for fuel economy, instead favoring other benefits. Can that transmission be programmed to deliver 'traditional' hybrid benefits (i.e. significantly higher fuel economy) or does it have limitations in that area?

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

Turning back to Mustang, since we're seemingly not getting a BEV model for at least another generation (unless Ford has a surprise up its sleeve)

 

There's a good possibility that Ford will accelerate the timeline for introducing Mustang Coupe BEV and Mustang Convertible BEV, maybe even something involving the S650 generation. When The Drive asked Jim Farley what he wanted for the next generation Mustang, his reply was "For my kid to have it on his wall. Or on his phone." That means the attributes that only a BEV can provide. 

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

my impression of the F150 powerboost is that it doesn't do to much for fuel economy, instead favoring other benefits. 

In warmer weather I get around 23 mpg combined with a lot of freeway driving in the 70mph - 80mph range. If I stick to roads with speeds in the 35-45 range and some traffic signals I get 30+. It is also fast for something that weights almost 3 tons, only issue is the transmission is very rough at low speeds, a few times I think it is going to fall out the bottom of the truck rough shifting from reverse to drive.

[IMSA-XJR9]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

That means the attributes that only a BEV can provide. 

 

So . . . nothing to do with style/design?!  And if you reply directly, please do not use "Sir" in your response to me.  I find reading your replies using said term to be very condescending, regardless of your Texan etiquette.  

 

EDIT

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by IMSA-XJR9

[rperez817]

31 minutes ago, IMSA-XJR9 said:

So . . . nothing to do with style/design?! 

 

Style/design combined with high performance combined with sustainability. That's what the younger generations of car buyers, and future car buyers, expect from automakers. 100% electric propulsion is the only way for future Mustangs to provide all of that.

Edited January 28, 2022 by rperez817

[IMSA-XJR9]

15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Style/design combined with high performance combined with sustainability. 

 

Don't disagree with that summation at all! ?

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

There's a good possibility that Ford will accelerate the timeline for introducing Mustang Coupe BEV and Mustang Convertible BEV, maybe even something involving the S650 generation. When The Drive asked Jim Farley what he wanted for the next generation Mustang, his reply was "For my kid to have it on his wall. Or on his phone." That means the attributes that only a BEV can provide. 

I don't know about that, those attributes could also be applied to the last mustang with a v8.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

those attributes could also be applied to the last mustang with a v8.

 

Traditionally, you are correct DeluxeStang, V8 powered Mustangs did provide those attributes in the past. But by the latter part of this decade, the days of Ford producing V8 Mustangs will be numbered. Same is true for Mustang's competitors in the muscle car category.

 

Tim Kuniskis, an executive for one of those competitors, Stellantis' Dodge brand, said this.

The days of [V8 muscle cars] are numbered, they’re absolutely numbered because of all the compliance costs. But the performance that those vehicles generate is not numbered. I’m super excited about the future of electric because I think it’s what’s going to allow us to not fall off the cliff. Without that technology, without electrification, this is 1972 right now, this thing is going to end.

[DeluxeStang]

11 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Traditionally, you are correct DeluxeStang, V8 powered Mustangs did provide those attributes in the past. But by the latter part of this decade, the days of Ford producing V8 Mustangs will be numbered. Same is true for Mustang's competitors in the muscle car category.

 

Tim Kuniskis, an executive for one of those competitors, Stellantis' Dodge brand, said this.

 

 

I agree completely, the s750 or whatever it's called will almost certainly be all electric, and that's not a bad thing. But because those comments on the mustang being a poster car pertained to the s650 specifically, I think it's safe to assume they're talking about a more traditional mustang.

[rmc523]

19 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Question: if we stipulate that the most likely Mustang hybrid would be one that uses the same transmission as the F150, will such a vehicle be more of a performance proposition than what the average consumer thinks of when they see the word "hybrid"? Said another way, my impression of the F150 powerboost is that it doesn't do to much for fuel economy, instead favoring other benefits. Can that transmission be programmed to deliver 'traditional' hybrid benefits (i.e. significantly higher fuel economy) or does it have limitations in that area?

 

Given it's branded as "Power"Boost, it could work.

 

And in a Mustang application, buyers would be more interested in added performance rather than pure fuel economy gains - at least on a V8 model.

 

18 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

There's a good possibility that Ford will accelerate the timeline for introducing Mustang Coupe BEV and Mustang Convertible BEV, maybe even something involving the S650 generation. When The Drive asked Jim Farley what he wanted for the next generation Mustang, his reply was "For my kid to have it on his wall. Or on his phone." That means the attributes that only a BEV can provide. 

 

Uh.  No.  It doesn't have to be BEV for a kid to put it on their wall.  You're just projecting your BEV obsession onto the comment.

 

The Ford GT is something a kid would want to put on his wall.  How could that be?  It's not BEV!

 

If "attributes only a BEV could provide" were a requirement for going on a kid's wall, they'd have posters of a Bolt or a Leaf.   lol.

[Deanh]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2022 at 6:08 AM, fordmantpw said:

 

Then why is there a 6 month wait for a Mach E?

Why did Ford have to stop taking reservations for the Lightning?

Why did Ford double their output for electric vehicles?

 

Yes, the government may have played a part in originally bringing them to market, but people aren't lining up to buy these vehicles because the govt. tells them too (and no, the $7500 tax incentive isn't doing it when the price comes out to the same or more than an ICE vehicle after the rebate).

Waits and reservations?...easy...two words.....supply issues...same gos for a majority of their ENTIRE lineup....and Transits make the wait on a Mach E look bearable... 

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Waits and reservations?...easy...two words.....supply issues...same gos for a majority of their ENTIRE lineup....and Transits make the wait on a Mach E look bearable... 

 

Not the point.  The point was people do want BEVs with or without government intervention.

 

My point is that’s only true for a subset of buyers today.  Far more than the current 300k/yr but nowhere near 17M.

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

The Ford GT is something a kid would want to put on his wall.  How could that be?  It's not BEV!

 

If "attributes only a BEV could provide" were a requirement for going on a kid's wall, they'd have posters of a Bolt or a Leaf.   lol.

 

As mentioned earlier, the attributes are Style/design combined with high performance combined with sustainability. Ford GT, Bolt, and Leaf don't have all of those attributes. BEV Mustang will.