ehaase Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 11 hours ago, Footballfan said: Why can't ford be eating the Korean's lunch when it comes to sedans? I realize it is a stagnating segment but Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai seem to be doing ok. Remember a butt behind the wheel of a Ford is better than a butt behind the wheel of a competitor. Hyundai has already announced plans to discontinue Accent and Sonata. It is expected Kia will discontinue its versions of these models also, though no announcement has been made. I do expect Toyota and Honda to keep selling ICE (though probably hybrid) versions of Corolla, Camry, Civic, and Accord for many years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 13 hours ago, silvrsvt said: When you have limited resources and the market is moving away from them, why spend money on a dying segment? https://www.autoinfluence.com/what-happened-to-the-sedan/ Accord sales 2010 311,381 2011 235,625 2012 331,872 2013 366,678 2014 388,374 2015 355,557 2016 345,225 2017 322,655 2018 291,071 2019 267,567 2020 199,458 2021 202,676 Civic sales 2010 260,218 2011 221,235 2012 317,909 2013 336,180 2014 325,981 2015 335,384 2016 366,927 2017 377,266 2018 325,760 2019 325,650 2020 261,225 2021 263,787 Rather see that money put into a growth segment like the Maverick or Bronco And yet Civic outsold every Ford nameplate with the exception of F Series and Accord was bested by only it and Explorer (219,871). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 12 hours ago, ehaase said: Hyundai has already announced plans to discontinue Accent and Sonata. It is expected Kia will discontinue its versions of these models also, though no announcement has been made. I do expect Toyota and Honda to keep selling ICE (though probably hybrid) versions of Corolla, Camry, Civic, and Accord for many years to come. Hyundai Sonata, Kia Stinger, And K5 To Be Axed In The US: Report (motor1.com) ...in about 5-6 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) On 7/30/2022 at 11:44 AM, Trader 10 said: And yet Civic outsold every Ford nameplate with the exception of F Series and Accord was bested by only it and Explorer (219,871). Ford and GM basically gave the market to Honda and Toyota yet sales continued to fall, they knew the market was changing to utilities particularly beyond 2018. The point here being that Honda and Toyota were selling into a vacuum but not getting prices that achieved significant profit for them in the us market. Be under no illusion that sales of these cars vs other trucks and utilities is an unequal comparison, the profit level is completely different. Toyota and Honda would kill to have full sized truck and utility sales like GM and Ford, even Ram. Edited July 31, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 Don’t forget Honda and Toyota have huge markets in Japan to amortize sedans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 On 7/30/2022 at 12:39 AM, AGR said: Hyundai Sonata, Kia Stinger, And K5 To Be Axed In The US: Report (motor1.com) ...in about 5-6 years. The Stinger is dead already and is a higher profit vehicle then the Sonata/K5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: The Stinger is dead already It is? The Kia Motors USA website just added info and build/price tool for 2023 Stinger. 2023 Kia Stinger | Sports Sedan - Pricing & Features | Kia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: It is? The Kia Motors USA website just added info and build/price tool for 2023 Stinger. 2023 Kia Stinger | Sports Sedan - Pricing & Features | Kia Kia confirmed it won’t be renewed after the current model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The Stinger is dead already and is a higher profit vehicle then the Sonata/K5 Maybe to enthusiasts and the enthusiast press, but certainly not to the average person. Edit: I misread profit as profile. But since the Stinger didn't sell well, the Sonata and Optima/K5 are probably more profitable, too. Edited July 31, 2022 by AGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 4 hours ago, akirby said: Don’t forget Honda and Toyota have huge markets in Japan to amortize sedans. Not really. They sell way more Civics, Corollas, Accords, and Camrys in the US than in Japan. They sell more boxes on wheels like the Stepwgn in Japan. In China on the other hand... (but of course, so does Ford) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 2 hours ago, AGR said: Not really. They sell way more Civics, Corollas, Accords, and Camrys in the US than in Japan. They sell more boxes on wheels like the Stepwgn in Japan. In China on the other hand... (but of course, so does Ford) I see now that overall sales are much higher but what about sedans specifically? Can’t find that data. I assume they sell a lot more sedans in Asia and a lot more utilities and trucks here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyFord Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) Quick search. Civic discontinued in Japan in 2020 and Accord to be discontinued in Japan in September 2022. Maybe Corolla discontinued in 2007. Camry looks to be still there. But that is all Google. Edited July 31, 2022 by BarneyFord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 8 hours ago, akirby said: Kia confirmed it won’t be renewed after the current model. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 On 7/31/2022 at 12:02 PM, akirby said: I see now that overall sales are much higher but what about sedans specifically? Can’t find that data. I assume they sell a lot more sedans in Asia and a lot more utilities and trucks here. Sedan doesn't sell that much in Japan. In fact, Honda doesn't even offer Civic in Japan. It's all tall minivans and CUV of various sizes. US and China are the largest market for sedans like Civic and Camry. Outside US and China, Civic and Accord sales sales are basically rounding error. Camry and Corolla see a bit of action in the Middle East but a fraction of US market. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 I saw a piece on FordAuthority that stated Farley is concerned with the number of ICE's that Ford currently has in production and wants to drastically reduce the number of engine options in ICE vehicles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: I saw a piece on FordAuthority that stated Farley is concerned with the number of ICE's that Ford currently has in production and wants to drastically reduce the number of engine options in ICE vehicles. To me that’s a no brainer only question is how far to go and when. Transverse - You have to keep the 2.5 hybrid and the 2.0T. 2.3T could be replaced with a tuned 2.0T. It’s only in Corsair anyway. Longitudinal - You have to keep the 2.3T for Mustang, Ranger and Explorer. Maybe it replaces the 3.3L V6 for F150. 5.0L stays for Mustang and F150 icons. 3.5T stays for F150. 6.7D and 7.3 stay for SD and Mediums. 2.7T and 3.0T could be consolidated. Maybe a detuned 3.0T to replace the 2.7 keeping a HO 3.0T for the performance vehicles. Edited August 5, 2022 by akirby 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 I'd think the 1.5EB would have to stay for now too. I think the 3.3 NA wasn't needed to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 22 minutes ago, 92merc said: I'd think the 1.5EB would have to stay for now too. I think the 3.3 NA wasn't needed to begin with. I don’t see a need for the 1.5L and the 2.0. It only exists now to offer a lower price point. You could do that with a detuned 2.0L if it was absolutely necessary (But I don’t think it is). I see the HEV being the entry level like Maverick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 Is the 6.2L gone for 2023? I keep hearing rumors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 Well looks like the 2.3L is getting dropped from the Corsair https://fordauthority.com/2022/08/2023-lincoln-corsair-to-drop-optional-2-3l-i-4-ecoboost-engine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 33 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Well looks like the 2.3L is getting dropped from the Corsair https://fordauthority.com/2022/08/2023-lincoln-corsair-to-drop-optional-2-3l-i-4-ecoboost-engine/ Not surprised. Once the PHEV came along it was only a matter of time before either the 2.0 or 2.3 was dropped. It's a shame though, the 2.3 is a fabulous engine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Not surprised. Once the PHEV came along it was only a matter of time before either the 2.0 or 2.3 was dropped. It's a shame though, the 2.3 is a fabulous engine. Not that we have any plans to replace our MkC with a Corsair anytime soon, but that definitely takes the Corsair off the list. I think it just means it will be a Mach-E for us or whatever they give Lincoln. Sadly I think it might be a while before they actually get a Lincoln BEV, which is a shame because a Mach-E in Lincoln trim with a redesigned front facia and the better Lincoln interior would kill in that market space. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) On 8/5/2022 at 5:54 AM, akirby said: To me that’s a no brainer only question is how far to go and when. Transverse - You have to keep the 2.5 hybrid and the 2.0T. 2.3T could be replaced with a tuned 2.0T. It’s only in Corsair anyway. Longitudinal - You have to keep the 2.3T for Mustang, Ranger and Explorer. Maybe it replaces the 3.3L V6 for F150. 5.0L stays for Mustang and F150 icons. 3.5T stays for F150. 6.7D and 7.3 stay for SD and Mediums. 2.7T and 3.0T could be consolidated. Maybe a detuned 3.0T to replace the 2.7 keeping a HO 3.0T for the performance vehicles. Only 2.3T transverse is really in danger here due to unique application in Corsair and Focus ST (EU only). Farley's comment is probably more aimed at Europe where Ford has far too many ICE options for the volume it is generating: 1.1 VCT 1.0 EB 1.0 EB 48V Mild Hybrid 1.0 PHEV 1.5 EB 1.5 EB 48V Mild Hybrid 1.5 EcoBlue 2.0 EB 2.0 EcoBlue 2.0 EcoBlue 48V Mild Hybrid 2.5 Hybrid 2.5 PHEV 2.3 EB And keep in mind most of these come with both manual and auto options and multiple output levels. For example, there are 3 different 1.0 EB output levels for different trim levels and 2 of them are available with 6MT or automatic. And 2 of the 1.0 EV are paired with 48V hybrid system so the combination multiplies. Don't forget the 1.0 EB PHEV. It's really crazy when you think about the freefalling volume at Ford Europe in this context. Edited August 9, 2022 by bzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 $8,500 price hike for Lightning https://www.autonews.com/retail/ford-f-150-lightning-prices-going-order-bank-reopens-current-reservation-holders Ford Motor Co. is increasing the starting price of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup $6,000 to $8,500 across all trims because of rising material costs as it reopens order banks for current reservation holders. The entry-level Pro trim gets the biggest percentage price hike, up about 17 percent to $48,769, including a $1,795 shipping fee. The Lightning's sub-$40,000 starting price, excluding shipping fees, was a key marketing point that Ford touted at the vehicle's launch. But executives have warned that price increases would be coming as rising commodity costs have wiped out early profits on the Mustang Mach-E and other Electric Vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 22 hours ago, jpd80 said: $8,500 price hike for Lightning https://www.autonews.com/retail/ford-f-150-lightning-prices-going-order-bank-reopens-current-reservation-holders Ford Motor Co. is increasing the starting price of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup $6,000 to $8,500 across all trims because of rising material costs as it reopens order banks for current reservation holders. The entry-level Pro trim gets the biggest percentage price hike, up about 17 percent to $48,769, including a $1,795 shipping fee. The Lightning's sub-$40,000 starting price, excluding shipping fees, was a key marketing point that Ford touted at the vehicle's launch. But executives have warned that price increases would be coming as rising commodity costs have wiped out early profits on the Mustang Mach-E and other Electric Vehicles Awesome move! Ford is making the cost of these trucks well beyond the means of the average customer and these are supposed to be the future? Good luck with Blue Oval City if you are going to charge these prices. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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