akirby Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 1 hour ago, grbeck said: Using hardball tactics is not necessarily the same as refusing to bargain in good faith. I'm not saying the union is right in choosing this path - leadership still seems to believe it's 1965, and GM, Ford, Chrysler and AMC have 91 percent of the new vehicle market - but saying that the use of hardball tactics proves bad faith would be tough for the board to swallow. Making unreasonable demands and refusing to meet with automakers sounds like bad faith bargaining to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 4 hours ago, Oacjay98 said: Although we are getting EVs I’m still disappointed the Edge is going and Nautilus coming from China. Agree, very disappointed with Edge and Nautilus. Edge and Nautilus are fine products. Wife was looking forward to a hybrid Nautilus. From China, not so much. Hope we are not moving too fast with BEVs. Want to see all our North American plants working! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 12 minutes ago, akirby said: Making unreasonable demands and refusing to meet with automakers sounds like bad faith bargaining to me. We have to define what constitutes an "unreasonable demand." I would expect the union to initially ask for the sun, the moon and all of the stars. They'll get the moon and a few stars...but that's the way it's supposed to work. As for the strike "dragging on for months"...is that what the union wants, or what is prepared to accept? Because that will be a key fact in determining whether its actions constitute bad faith. Others have posted that the union continues to meet with Ford leadership, so it is not necessarily refusing to meet with Ford's negotiating team. I agree with you that the UAW appears to have an unrealistic expectation of what it can obtain with this contract, but charges of "bad faith" are hard to prove in these circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 48 minutes ago, akirby said: Making unreasonable demands and refusing to meet with automakers sounds like bad faith bargaining to me. Plus I believe they refused to offer any counter proposals. I think that does constitute "bad faith". Now we are hearing "progress" which I interpret to me their has been some give and take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: Now we are hearing "progress" which I interpret to me their has been some give and take. I just watched the livestream since I couldn’t earlier. Seems the sticking points are still the wage increase percentage and the pension/retirement issue. Those two things stuck out to me that he didn’t talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 26 minutes ago, grbeck said: Others have posted that the union continues to meet with Ford leadership, so it is not necessarily refusing to meet with Ford's negotiating team. I agree with you that the UAW appears to have an unrealistic expectation of what it can obtain with this contract, but charges of "bad faith" are hard to prove in these circumstances. Think the fact that no additional strike against Ford is planned indicates Ford is negotiating in good faith. Let's hope a deal can be made soon. On other forums, the domestic automakers and workers are not held in high regard. Think the Ford ads released recently are trying to give a positive spin to American labor. Certainly don't want to lose more market share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 11 minutes ago, paintguy said: Think the fact that no additional strike against Ford is planned indicates Ford is negotiating in good faith. Let's hope a deal can be made soon. On other forums, the domestic automakers and workers are not held in high regard. Think the Ford ads released recently are trying to give a positive spin to American labor. Certainly don't want to lose more market share. For what it's worth, since the days of Henry Ford II, Ford has had the best relationship with the UAW among the Big Three. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 21 minutes ago, paintguy said: Think the fact that no additional strike against Ford is planned indicates Ford is negotiating in good faith. Let's hope a deal can be made soon. On other forums, the domestic automakers and workers are not held in high regard. Think the Ford ads released recently are trying to give a positive spin to American labor. Certainly don't want to lose more market share. The union has plenty of blame for that by not allowing to stick to the discipline policies they agreed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 57 minutes ago, grbeck said: We have to define what constitutes an "unreasonable demand." I would expect the union to initially ask for the sun, the moon and all of the stars. They'll get the moon and a few stars...but that's the way it's supposed to work. As for the strike "dragging on for months"...is that what the union wants, or what is prepared to accept? Because that will be a key fact in determining whether its actions constitute bad faith. Others have posted that the union continues to meet with Ford leadership, so it is not necessarily refusing to meet with Ford's negotiating team. I agree with you that the UAW appears to have an unrealistic expectation of what it can obtain with this contract, but charges of "bad faith" are hard to prove in these circumstances. Ford tried to meet with them right before the strike and they refused. Asking for things you know the company can’t afford and refusing to negotiate those points is bad faith in my book. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, akirby said: Ford tried to meet with them right before the strike and they refused. Asking for things you know the company can’t afford and refusing to negotiate those points is bad faith in my book. That’s not entirely true. The bargaining team itself was at the table in solidarity house late into the evening until it was clear a deal wouldn’t get done before the deadline. I know this to be true. I had heard talks were breaking down right around lunchtime. Jim Farley called out Fain specifically for not being at the table. Edited September 22, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 5 hours ago, paintguy said: Agree, very disappointed with Edge and Nautilus. Edge and Nautilus are fine products. Wife was looking forward to a hybrid Nautilus. From China, not so much. Hope we are not moving too fast with BEVs. Want to see all our North American plants working! I just hope the EV replacements will be good products quality and looks wise. Well Ford slowed down their plans abit. Hybrids in the near term. OAC and BOC won’t be online till 2025 anyways with a long slow launch I predict. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That’s not entirely true. The bargaining team itself was at the table in solidarity house late into the evening until it was clear a deal wouldn’t get done before the deadline. I know this to be true. I had heard talks were breaking down right around lunchtime. Jim Farley called out Fain specifically for not being at the table. It’s interesting to watch the players and how each side tries to increase pressure with an approaching deadline, what happens as a consequence of that and how people come back to the negotiating table. I guess there’s a need for that process of actions / inaction and consequences so that reality comes into the negotiations. A negotiation is where neither side gets all that it wants, so at some point both sides are going to accept that the members will vote on something less than ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: I just hope the EV replacements will be good products quality and looks wise. Well Ford slowed down their plans abit. If Jim Farley has his way, upcoming Ford BEV will be great products, probably even better than the award-winning BEV Ford offers currently. He said the following a couple weeks ago. “I found that people who buy electric vehicles just want really good shit! They don’t want science projects. They want a really great product.” The biggest concern is what you mention about Ford possibly slowing down their plans for leadership with BEV. This impacts not only UAW, Unifor, and CTM union employees at its BEV plants in U.S., Canada, and Mexico, but Ford as a whole globally. Ford isn't going to achieve the 600,000 unit yearly run rate for BEV in 2023 as they originally planned, largely because plant expansions at CSAP and REVC resulted in lost production for both Mustang Mach-E and F-150 Lightning earlier this year. Hopefully after the labor agreements are in place, Ford will be back on track to achieve 600,000 BEV run rate by mid 2024, and 2 million run rate by 2026. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) Sorry, off topic wrong thread to be discussing BEVs Edited September 23, 2023 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) Sorry, off topic wrong forum to be discussing EVs. Edited September 23, 2023 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: If Jim Farley has his way, upcoming Ford BEV will be great products, probably even better than the award-winning BEV Ford offers currently. He said the following a couple weeks ago. The biggest concern is what you mention about Ford possibly slowing down their plans for leadership with BEV. This impacts not only UAW, Unifor, and CTM union employees at its BEV plants in U.S., Canada, and Mexico, but Ford as a whole globally. Ford isn't going to achieve the 600,000 unit yearly run rate for BEV in 2023 as they originally planned, largely because plant expansions at CSAP and REVC resulted in lost production for both Mustang Mach-E and F-150 Lightning earlier this year. Hopefully after the labor agreements are in place, Ford will be back on track to achieve 600,000 BEV run rate by mid 2024, and 2 million run rate by 2026. Yes hopefully. I’m more concerned about this contract. I already know we will be lowballed in comparison to UAW AS USUAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 Rumors are flying around about what we’re gonna get and if this contract passes it’s not gonna be by a huge margin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 55 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: Rumors are flying around about what we’re gonna get and if this contract passes it’s not gonna be by a huge margin Well, come on. Share with the class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 10 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Well, come on. Share with the class! From Automotive News: Quote Unifor’s tentative deal with Ford Motor Co. of Canada includes immediate wage increases of up to 22 percent and a commitment to added engine production capacity in Windsor, Ont. The automaker has also pledged to transfer workers currently on defined contribution pensions plans to the superior defined benefits plan in 2025.Unifor’s tentative deal with Ford offers considerable off-the-bat wage increases, pay hikes in each of the second and third years of the agreement and a compression of the previous wage grid. Wages for starting workers in Canadian dollars, including a $1.21 cost-of-living allowance fold-in, will jump 22 percent as of Sept. 25, rising to $29.67 from $24.26 previously. For workers already at the top-end of the pay grid, wages will increase 13 percent, to $42.39 from $37.33 (Note, the Canadian dollar is worth $7.41 in U.S. dollars at current exchange rates.) Pay for workers at all levels of the wage grid will then rise two and three per cent at the start of the second and third years of the agreement. The deal also halves the grow-in time for new workers. Under the previous collective agreement, new hires started at 65 percent of top-end pay and it took eight years to progress to 100 percent. The new tentative deal gives new hires 70 percent of high-end pay and shortens the grow-in time to four years. Signing bonus Active Ford members will also get a C$10,000 ($7,411 USD) “Productivity and Quality” signing bonus. The tentative deal offers a path back to defined benefits pension plans for workers hired after 2016 as well. Members currently on defined contribution plans will be able to transfer to the more “stable and beneficial” defined benefits plan as of Jan. 1, 2025, according to the master bargaining committee. A range of other improvements to both sets of pension plans are also included in the tentative deal. Support for workers during retooling periods was another of Unifor’s key priorities heading into talks. To assist members during shutdowns, the supplemental unemployment base rate increases to 70 from 65 percent. Notably, it will remain at that rate through the estimated eight-month retooling period for the Oakville Assembly Complex. That project is scheduled to start next year. Production promises While the Oakville plant already has a C$1.8 billion ($1.3 billion) investment commitment, the tentative deal also includes unquantified spending in Winds. Ford has agreed to upgrades that will add additional capacity to build the 7.3-liter engine at the Essex Engine Plant starting in late 2025, Unifor said. Work will run over three years, with tooling installation anticipated in late 2026 and the start of production scheduled for the first quarter of 2028. Seems like a pretty damn good deal overall, but I'm not in the union so don't know what the rank and file expected. I think Ford stepped up here in a big way. https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/canada-labor-talks-unifor-deal-ford-contains-22-raise?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20230923&utm_content=hero-headline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 28 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: From Automotive News: Seems like a pretty damn good deal overall, but I'm not in the union so don't know what the rank and file expected. I think Ford stepped up here in a big way. https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/canada-labor-talks-unifor-deal-ford-contains-22-raise?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20230923&utm_content=hero-headline You beat me to the punch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 11 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Well, come on. Share with the class! Harley Lover beat me to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 40 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: You beat me to the punch! What is your opinion of this deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 That’s not terrible. It’s basically what’s on the table for us right now minus the pension part which I think is the hold up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 29 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That’s not terrible. It’s basically what’s on the table for us right now minus the pension part which I think is the hold up Go to uniforautotalks.ca all information there. Autotalks.uniforautohub.ca 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 Update on Ford and the UAW proposals https://fordauthority.com/2023/09/ford-contract-proposal-progress-outlined-by-uaw/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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