New Leader Shifts Lincoln's EV Plans - Lincoln is Expected to Discontinue Gasoline Versions of the Corsair and Aviator, While Its First EV, a Three-Row Crossover, is Expected in Late 2025

[ice-capades]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/ford-wants-to-eliminate-200-lincoln-dealers-via-buyouts/

 

After cutting around 100 Lincoln dealers in 2023, FoMoCo reportedly plans on slashing another 100 from its network this year, according to this new report, meaning that by the end of 2024, it would be left with around 400 stores. That’s roughly 40 percent fewer than the number of Lincoln dealers that existed as recently as 2021, too. However, by comparison, Lexus operates around half as many, and Cadillac has around 73 fewer stores as well, though both of those brands beat Lincoln in sales last year. The idea is to boost profitability, and Lincoln plans to offer existing dealers buyouts to reach this goal, though terms of those deals will vary by location and could include offers for more Ford-branded inventory and incentive plans.

 

Posted earlier this morning regarding the article in The Detroit News.

https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/75807-lincoln-to-cut-more-dealership-locations-this-year/&tab=comments#comment-1218520

[joseodiaga4]

LINCOLN EV SALES PROGRAM ON HOLD AMID BRAND REORGANIZATION

Even though Ford is moving forward with the implementation of its own Model e Certified program, it seems as if Lincoln’s version is “essentially on hold,” according to this report, a move that’s being made as the brand “rethinks its strategy.” Craig did note that the brand’s decision to trim its dealer network has nothing to do with the number of dealers that did or didn’t opt in for the EV sales program, however.

Previously, FoMoCo announced that the revised Lincoln EV sales program was deferring the timetable dealers were previously expected to follow when installing public fast chargers, along with various other tweaks. Lincoln dealers participating in the program weren’t required to have to install those chargers until March 2025 – instead of November 2024 as previously expected – and weren’t required to install a Level 2 charger in the new vehicle delivery area. Additionally, dealers had until July 2026 to an install a Level 3 public charger, and the program changed to cover three years – 2025-2027 – instead of two.

 

https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/lincoln-ev-sales-program-on-hold-amid-brand-reorganization/

 

[twintornados]

20 hours ago, The Handler said:

So was Mercury....

 

...and even Edsel would have agreed that Mercury was becoming irrelevant with Ford's upscale trims

[The Handler]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

...and even Edsel would have agreed that Mercury was becoming irrelevant with Ford's upscale trims

I don't think he would approve of how either division was managed since his death.

[Flying68]

Our local Lincoln dealer became a Black Label dealer after buying out Long McArthur's Lincoln inventory. I presume LM's Lincoln franchise was pulled due to market size.

[joseodiaga4]

4 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

LINCOLN EV SALES PROGRAM ON HOLD AMID BRAND REORGANIZATION

Even though Ford is moving forward with the implementation of its own Model e Certified program, it seems as if Lincoln’s version is “essentially on hold,” according to this report, a move that’s being made as the brand “rethinks its strategy.” Craig did note that the brand’s decision to trim its dealer network has nothing to do with the number of dealers that did or didn’t opt in for the EV sales program, however.

Previously, FoMoCo announced that the revised Lincoln EV sales program was deferring the timetable dealers were previously expected to follow when installing public fast chargers, along with various other tweaks. Lincoln dealers participating in the program weren’t required to have to install those chargers until March 2025 – instead of November 2024 as previously expected – and weren’t required to install a Level 2 charger in the new vehicle delivery area. Additionally, dealers had until July 2026 to an install a Level 3 public charger, and the program changed to cover three years – 2025-2027 – instead of two.

 

https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/lincoln-ev-sales-program-on-hold-amid-brand-reorganization/

 

The level of mismanagement is ridiculous!

From what I've read elsewhere, there is just one EV (the 3-row) on the timeline for Lincoln. 

And just the refreshed Aviator and (maybe?) new Navi for this year.

 

[tbone]

1 hour ago, The Handler said:

I don't think he would approve of how either division was managed since his death.

It sure feels like Lincoln is being poorly managed again, which is holding it back.  I sure hope they don’t allow the positive product/sales momentum they have experienced to be ruined by stale products and lack of models and commitment.  

[twintornados]

2 hours ago, The Handler said:

I don't think he would approve of how either division was managed since his death.

 

Quite honestly, I am a huge Edsel fan....above all else, he was a great business man.

[Ares]

According to Borg on GM Inside News, the only EV Lincoln is continuing development on at this point is the three row crossover.
 

He also said that a next generation ICE Aviator is in development along with the Explorer. 

[akirby]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:08 PM, Flying68 said:

Our local Lincoln dealer became a Black Label dealer after buying out Long McArthur's Lincoln inventory. I presume LM's Lincoln franchise was pulled due to market size.

Lincoln cannot “pull franchises”.  It’s illegal.  All they can do is buy them out.

[joseodiaga4]

5 hours ago, matt6 said:

According to Borg on GM Inside News, the only EV Lincoln is continuing development on at this point is the three row crossover.
 

He also said that a next generation ICE Aviator is in development along with the Explorer. 

this is very worrying. Cadillac has 3 new EVs coming the new years. Mercedes Benz already has 4.

Lincoln with just 4 models, maybe 5 with the EV is in disadvantage.

I think they should keep the ICE models and have EV versions of each.

Maybe expand the current lineup with some CUV Coupes like the  BMW X4-X6

[Dequindre]

Could Lincoln be the breeding ground for new hybrid models rather than EVs (based on comments by Jim Farley and Ford's COO)? That would explain why they pumped the brakes on EV investment plans.

[Harley Lover]

2 hours ago, Dequindre said:

Could Lincoln be the breeding ground for new hybrid models rather than EVs (based on comments by Jim Farley and Ford's COO)? That would explain why they pumped the brakes on EV investment plans.

 

Perhaps indirectly - it's much more likely the Ford models upon which the Lincolns are based might be making a pivot towards enhanced hybrid capabilities, and the Lincoln models are just along for the ride.

[joseodiaga4]

42 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Perhaps indirectly - it's much more likely the Ford models upon which the Lincolns are based might be making a pivot towards enhanced hybrid capabilities, and the Lincoln models are just along for the ride.

Sadly as always.

Is so difficult for Ford to give Lincoln vehicles that doesn’t depend on a Ford counterpart?
I mean the current strategy is not working out clearly

[DeluxeStang]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:33 PM, tbone said:

It sure feels like Lincoln is being poorly managed again, which is holding it back.  I sure hope they don’t allow the positive product/sales momentum they have experienced to be ruined by stale products and lack of models and commitment.  

Let's give the people running Lincoln some credit. They aren't perfect, but they found a way to finally differentiate Lincoln from the Ford's they're based on, and from all the luxury brands trying to making performance vehicles. 

 

Lincoln still has some shortcomings, but they've made a tremendous amount of progress in recent years. From what we've heard, they're putting a ton of effort into making striking, enticing electric vehicles with a ton of wow factor. Doing it right like that just takes time. 

[DeluxeStang]

11 hours ago, matt6 said:

According to Borg on GM Inside News, the only EV Lincoln is continuing development on at this point is the three row crossover.
 

He also said that a next generation ICE Aviator is in development along with the Explorer. 

Very interesting, brands can obviously have multiple products with the same name, but that's gonna get confusing to have an aviator EV, that's the Lincoln three row, and the normal aviator. 

[silvrsvt]

Borg is infamously inaccurate..the CD6 Explorer/Aviator is planned to be in production till 2035, with a major update towards the end of the decade. 

 

At this point, developing anything brand new ICE wise would be stupid because it would be lucky to see the light of day by 2029MY. 

Even if EV aren't as popular as their detractors make them out to be, they will still need to be sold to make CAFE in significant numbers. I also see automakers fighting any changes at this point even if there are political changes later this year. 

 

Lots of things can and will change between now and 2030 when it comes to cars. 

[Rick73]

Ford needs (or could use) a fuel-efficient-biased hybrid powertrain for larger and heavier RWD vehicles.  If BEV adoption is now expected to progress slower than previously thought, there could be plenty of time to develop new engines and transmissions, and still recover investment.  I expect some powertrain programs are already underway.  Additionally, BEVs are not likely to achieve 100% adoption in next 10 years, and some existing engines will be old by then.

[tbone]

10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Let's give the people running Lincoln some credit. They aren't perfect, but they found a way to finally differentiate Lincoln from the Ford's they're based on, and from all the luxury brands trying to making performance vehicles. 

 

Lincoln still has some shortcomings, but they've made a tremendous amount of progress in recent years. From what we've heard, they're putting a ton of effort into making striking, enticing electric vehicles with a ton of wow factor. Doing it right like that just takes time. 

We are going to find out in pretty short order.  They have me a little worried though.  

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Ford needs (or could use) a fuel-efficient-biased hybrid powertrain for larger and heavier RWD vehicles.  If BEV adoption is now expected to progress slower than previously thought, there could be plenty of time to develop new engines and transmissions, and still recover investment.  I expect some powertrain programs are already underway.  Additionally, BEVs are not likely to achieve 100% adoption in next 10 years, and some existing engines will be old by then.

With hybrids, you'd basically have your bases covered with three powertrains, buyers who wanted a frugal, efficient and reliable hybrid system could buy something with the 2.5 Atkinson powertrain. That's one of Ford's most well rounded powertrains currently, and they really need to increase production of it so they can use it in other models. 

 

For heavier commerical vehicles, your transits, f-150s etc, I say keep on keeping on with the 3.5 power boost. Those are apparently having more issues than the 2.5, but if they can work the bugs out, it's a really capable powertrain that would be perfect for heavy duty use short of a super duty. 

 

Finally, for performance, take the 5.0 and pair it to front motors you get with something like a mach-e. You could have 600 or 700 AWD hp. Three powertrains that cover the needs of frugal, commerical, and performance car buyers without Ford having to engineer new engines and transmissions from the ground up. 

[silvrsvt]

7 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

With hybrids, you'd basically have your bases covered with three powertrains, buyers who wanted a frugal, efficient and reliable hybrid system could buy something with the 2.5 Atkinson powertrain. That's one of Ford's most well rounded powertrains currently, and they really need to increase production of it so they can use it in other models. 

 

For heavier commerical vehicles, your transits, f-150s etc, I say keep on keeping on with the 3.5 power boost. Those are apparently having more issues than the 2.5, but if they can work the bugs out, it's a really capable powertrain that would be perfect for heavy duty use short of a super duty. 

 

Finally, for performance, take the 5.0 and pair it to front motors you get with something like a mach-e. You could have 600 or 700 AWD hp. Three powertrains that cover the needs of frugal, commerical, and performance car buyers without Ford having to engineer new engines and transmissions from the ground up. 

 

Your not going to see a huge improvement in MPGs with using a hybrid system in vehicles that need to do actual real work. Smaller vehicles will do better because they have an eCVT and other things that don't lend themselves to do actual work like towing and what not. 

 

That is why Powerboost is being marketed as a power adder and having other things like Propower.

 

Just look at the 2.7L vs the 3.5L with Powerboost-the Powerboost only saves about $250 bucks a year in gas over the 2.7L, but it also costs a lot more. Even the 3.3L hybrid vs the 2.3L Ecoboost really doesn't justify itself in improved gas mileage, except in limited situations like police vehicle, which can sit for extended periods of time. 

[Rick73]

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

With hybrids, you'd basically have your bases covered with three powertrains, buyers who wanted a frugal, efficient and reliable hybrid system could buy something with the 2.5 Atkinson powertrain. That's one of Ford's most well rounded powertrains currently, and they really need to increase production of it so they can use it in other models. 

 

For heavier commerical vehicles, your transits, f-150s etc, I say keep on keeping on with the 3.5 power boost. Those are apparently having more issues than the 2.5, but if they can work the bugs out, it's a really capable powertrain that would be perfect for heavy duty use short of a super duty. 

 

Finally, for performance, take the 5.0 and pair it to front motors you get with something like a mach-e. You could have 600 or 700 AWD hp. Three powertrains that cover the needs of frugal, commerical, and performance car buyers without Ford having to engineer new engines and transmissions from the ground up. 

I agree that three different hybrid powertrains should cover most of the vehicle size range, but view requirements very differently beyond that.

 

For vehicles like Maverick and smaller, the FWD hybrid could get upgraded to a newer engine.  I can’t believe Ford developed the new Mustang 2.3L unless it planned to use in other vehicles as well.  An Atkinson variant of new 2.3L could replace older 2.5L.  To me targeting around the same 200 HP “combined” power, more or less, while providing improved fuel efficiency is adequate and makes sense.

 

For RWD vehicles in the middle, like Ranger and Explorer in size, a 6-cylinder hybrid powertrain with approximately 300 combined HP could improve fuel economy enough to stand out.  I would go with inline-six Atkinson for smoothness and engine cost savings.  To minimize development costs, I-6 could share modular design with new Mustang 2.3L.

 

For largest vehicles like F-150 and Expedition, a V8 hybrid powertrain targeting around 400 HP makes sense to me.  If funding wasn’t limited, a new V8 engine using same modular design could work best, making it 4.5L.  However, consolidating 4-, 6-, and 8-cylinder engines into one modular design (like some manufacturers have done or tried) seems highly unlikely due to costs, so I think an Atkinson version of existing 5.0L V8 might be possible.

 

Where I disagree with you and a few others is that I believe high-power performance has a much more limited market for the masses.  Buyers want adequate power, but don’t want to spend on excesses they will rarely if ever use.  Sales numbers suggest to me that between 200 and 400 HP should cover the vast majority of vehicles, and that’s well within a range that could be optimized for economy with three refined fuel-saving powertrains.

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Buyers want adequate power, but don’t want to spend on excesses they will rarely if ever use. 

I don’t think you really understand buyers of large SUVs and trucks.

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

I don’t think you really understand buyers of large SUVs and trucks.

That statement was addressing DeluxeStang’s point about 600~700 HP SUVs and trucks.  If you happen to believe that that is what most buyers want and are willing to pay premium, you are entitled to an opinion, even one not supported by sales history.

 

I do not understand a lot of things, but then again even highly-compensated auto executives get basic customer desires wrong, like demand for BEVs, so it goes without saying that it is just as possible an expert like you may understand market forces even less than me. We are just expressing opinions here.  You think I’m wrong, and I think DeluxeStang is wrong in emphasizing performance to such an extreme. ? 

 

IMO Maverick Hybrid success (over 50% of sales) can be replicated with large vehicles also, provided similar strategy is followed; just adjusted for greater power and higher-cost vehicles.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

That statement was addressing DeluxeStang’s point about 600~700 HP SUVs and trucks.  If you happen to believe that that is what most buyers want and are willing to pay premium, you are entitled to an opinion, even one not supported by sales history.

 

I do not understand a lot of things, but then again even highly-compensated auto executives get basic customer desires wrong, like demand for BEVs, so it goes without saying that it is just as possible an expert like you may understand market forces even less than me. We are just expressing opinions here.  You think I’m wrong, and I think DeluxeStang is wrong in emphasizing performance to such an extreme. ? 

 

IMO Maverick Hybrid success (over 50% of sales) can be replicated with large vehicles also, provided similar strategy is followed; just adjusted for greater power and higher-cost vehicles.

It doesn’t matter what “most” buyers want when it comes to limited production halo models.  You only need to sell a few thousand a year and that is supported by sales history.  A little further down the chain the F150 Raptor has been hugely successful.

 

The two highest mpg F150s - the diesel 3.0 and 3.3 - were discontinued due to non existent demand.  Hybrid explorers get 28 city vs. 21.  Even with that huge advantage they’re only selling 10k/yr give or take.  The hybrid maverick was the cheapest version until a few months ago so it’s hard to say whether it was fuel economy or cost driving the sales.

 

One thing should be obvious.  Buyers of cheaper vehicles usually have far less disposable income than buyers spending $50k-$80k.  So of course they want lower fuel costs.  And because they’re usually smaller vehicles they can get away with small engines and get big results.  But once you move to heavier vehicles the smaller engines don’t work because they have to work too hard especially at highway speeds.  It’s also harder to charge a premium for mpgs whereas buyers will gladly pay a premium for more power and more functionality.

 

Buyers of mid to large SUVs and trucks don’t seem to share your obsession with efficiency and fuel economy - based on sales history.