New Leader Shifts Lincoln's EV Plans - Lincoln is Expected to Discontinue Gasoline Versions of the Corsair and Aviator, While Its First EV, a Three-Row Crossover, is Expected in Late 2025

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

I know proceeding too slowly can also be risky

 

Very risky for the Ford brand, and an existential threat for Lincoln brand. Hopefully more new product announcements for both brands will come after the UAW and Unifor contracts with Ford are finalized (per what ice-capades shared earlier in this thread).

[joseodiaga4]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

The next-gen dedicated BEV platforms are still in development.  Mach-E and Lightning are modified ICE platforms and Europe is VW based.

I get that but why they take that much time on the dedicated BEV platform? 

Take Kia/Hyundai for example. Even GM is going to have more EVs now and don't get me started on Cadillac (vs Lincoln)

Also I don’t get how is Ford saying that EV adoption is slow but Tesla is selling each time more vehicles? 
In a lot of countries here in Europe the Tesla Model Y is the top seller (I know there are differences between EU and US but nevertheless)

[rperez817]

15 minutes ago, joseodiaga4 said:

Also I don’t get how is Ford saying that EV adoption is slow but Tesla is selling each time more vehicles? 
In a lot of countries here in Europe the Tesla Model Y is the top seller (I know there are differences between EU and US but nevertheless)

 

You are correct joseodiaga4, EV adoption overall isn't slow. However, internally at Ford, the company slowed production earlier this year of both F-150 Lightning and Mustang Mach-E in order to expand their respective assembly plants. Additionally, in Europe Ford has postponed the start of production until late 2023 or early 2024 for Explorer EV due to UN Regulation 100.3/ ECE-R 100.3 compliance issues.

 

In the U.S., Tesla Model Y actually outsold F-150 overall (ICE + Lightning versions combined) at retail for several months in 2023.

[tbone]

7 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

 

I don't really understand how the play to make it live with such a small lineup. They need both ICE and EV Aviator and Corsair IMO. They should explore also other segments like Coupe-Suvs like other luxury brands (Mercedes Benz, BMW, eve Genesis is getting into it). 

it doesn't male any sense but it is Ford, they kinda do nonsense things lately

Me either considering they had dealers build standalone Lincoln dealerships, which some are very nice that I have seen, and then give them a few vehicles to sell.  
 

Yeah, let’s abandon the two row market because we are afraid to compete and cost effectively build a car.  It’s another ridiculous position considering not everyone wants or needs a three row vehicle.  My wife’s next vehicle will likely be going from three to two rows since we don’t need the third anymore.  
 

Is Ford/Lincoln even paying attention to what customers might want?  You can get any color you want as long as it’s black…

[joseodiaga4]

12 minutes ago, tbone said:

Me either considering they had dealers build standalone Lincoln dealerships, which some are very nice that I have seen, and then give them a few vehicles to sell.  
 

Yeah, let’s abandon the two row market because we are afraid to compete and cost effectively build a car.  It’s another ridiculous position considering not everyone wants or needs a three row vehicle.  My wife’s next vehicle will likely be going from three to two rows since we don’t need the third anymore.  
 

Is Ford/Lincoln even paying attention to what customers might want?  You can get any color you want as long as it’s black…

Yeah, they don't pay attention to the customers, I mean it is crazy to abandon the two row market, everybody else is on this market and Ford is really saying they can't and they need to get out of it! It seems They are really afraid to compete lately! 

Something like that happened with the sedans, look at the Koreans and Japanese, even the Germans 

[joseodiaga4]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:37 PM, silvrsvt said:

https://www.autonews.com/future-product/first-lincoln-ev-coming-late-2025-gasoline-lineup-shrinks

so they plan to wait until next year to show the Aviator, a vehicle that we have already seen without camo for a long time and keeps the old interior. What is the point!

Also the EV was supposed to debut on 2022! They show de Star concept but even that was a year ago and there is going to be 1-2+ years for the production version

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

How much back peddling can be actually done when 2028MY products are being planned/worked on at the moment?

 

anything between now and 2027 has been already planned for a while now. It takes time to get supply chain geared up and the past few years has completely fucked that up. 
 

plus where is their cheap hybrid pickup that Ford offers already? 

By “backpedaling” (a term based on pedaling a bike backwards which may not be as common as I thought) I mean “reverse one’s previous action or opinion”, or “do something different from what you had said you would do”.  Peddle is related to sales and not what I was addressing, though I suppose talking up ICE and hybrids as Farley has been doing could adversely affect Ford BEV sales.

 

The Hybrid Maverick appears to be a great success, with around 50% of Maverick sales.  The question that should be asked is whether there is space for similar hybrids across other vehicle designs.  I particularly like Maverick hybrid because it goes after fuel economy with its Atkinson engine, rather than performance like other models that use EcoBoost engines.  Maybe a minor distinction but it shows on EPA MPG ratings.  I may be wrong on this, but still think most hybrid buyers care more about fuel economy than 0-60 times.

[T-dubz]

29 minutes ago, tbone said:

Me either considering they had dealers build standalone Lincoln dealerships, which some are very nice that I have seen, and then give them a few vehicles to sell.  
 

Yeah, let’s abandon the two row market because we are afraid to compete and cost effectively build a car.  It’s another ridiculous position considering not everyone wants or needs a three row vehicle.  My wife’s next vehicle will likely be going from three to two rows since we don’t need the third anymore.  
 

Is Ford/Lincoln even paying attention to what customers might want?  You can get any color you want as long as it’s black…

Lincoln buyers aren’t exactly the youngest demographic. I’d expect most older buyers to be looking to downsize. There’s not a lot of need for 3 rows when your an empty nester. 

I also feel like only having 3 row SUVs really limits your market. How many people do you know that have multiple three row SUVs in their driveway? Probably no where near as many as those that have one 3 row and one 2 row, or those with 2 two rows suvs. 

[tbone]

9 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Lincoln buyers aren’t exactly the youngest demographic. I’d expect most older buyers to be looking to downsize. There’s not a lot of need for 3 rows when your an empty nester. 

I also feel like only having 3 row SUVs really limits your market. How many people do you know that have multiple three row SUVs in their driveway? Probably no where near as many as those that have one 3 row and one 2 row, or those with 2 two rows suvs. 

 Very good points. Additionally, the older generation tends to have more disposable income to buy luxury vehicles. I typically would not classify them as early adopters of new tech so I wouldn’t expect BEV to be their first choice.

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

By “backpedaling” (a term based on pedaling a bike backwards which may not be as common as I thought) I mean “reverse one’s previous action or opinion”, or “do something different from what you had said you would do”.  Peddle is related to sales and not what I was addressing, though I suppose talking up ICE and hybrids as Farley has been doing could adversely affect Ford BEV sales.

 

The Hybrid Maverick appears to be a great success, with around 50% of Maverick sales.  The question that should be asked is whether there is space for similar hybrids across other vehicle designs.  I particularly like Maverick hybrid because it goes after fuel economy with its Atkinson engine, rather than performance like other models that use EcoBoost engines.  Maybe a minor distinction but it shows on EPA MPG ratings.  I may be wrong on this, but still think most hybrid buyers care more about fuel economy than 0-60 times.

 

The only products that don't have a hybrid option are the Ranger/Bronco, Bronco Sport, Expedition/Navigator (as far as we know) and Transit. I'm guessing the BS will get a Hybrid at its refresh. 

 

larger vehicles won't see a marked improvement in MPGs, the F-150 sees a slight bump in city MPG and the Explorer HEV sees a nice boost in city mileage but not sure if that is translating into actual real world use going by reports. 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I also feel like only having 3 row SUVs really limits your market. How many people do you know that have multiple three row SUVs in their driveway? Probably no where near as many as those that have one 3 row and one 2 row, or those with 2 two rows suvs. 

 

How many of those 3 row SUVs actually have a useable 3rd row?

 

I think much of this information is just being misinterpreted by sound bites by the CEO by the press. 

[Gurgeh]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

...I particularly like Maverick hybrid because it goes after fuel economy with its Atkinson engine, rather than performance like other models that use EcoBoost engines.  Maybe a minor distinction but it shows on EPA MPG ratings.  I may be wrong on this, but still think most hybrid buyers care more about fuel economy than 0-60 times.

That may be true for mass market hybrid buyers, but not luxury car buyers, like Lincoln customers.

 

2 hours ago, T-dubz said:

Lincoln buyers aren’t exactly the youngest demographic. I’d expect most older buyers to be looking to downsize. There’s not a lot of need for 3 rows when your an empty nester. 

I also feel like only having 3 row SUVs really limits your market. How many people do you know that have multiple three row SUVs in their driveway? Probably no where near as many as those that have one 3 row and one 2 row, or those with 2 two rows suvs. 

The strange thing is that in China, where the Lincoln brand has really caught on (and which is now Lincoln's largest market, surpassing North American sales a few years ago), it is for whatever reason particularly sought after by younger car buyers. To overgeneralize things, in North America Lincoln is considered a brand for well-off oldsters. In China it is considered a brand for affluent hipsters. Another difference between the two markets, and you see it in the options Lincoln provides in the two markets, is that in China affluent car buyers often have a driver on staff. That's why Lincoln in China provides back-seat executive packages you don't see in North America, as well as an actual executive sedan.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gurgeh

[Oac98]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Very risky for the Ford brand, and an existential threat for Lincoln brand. Hopefully more new product announcements for both brands will come after the UAW and Unifor contracts with Ford are finalized (per what ice-capades shared earlier in this thread).

I’ve been saying this for the longest time in regards to the contract. I’m pretty sure Ford has cards in their deck too in the form of investment carrot dangling. I do expect for more info to be incoming after these contracts are ratified. WHENEVER THAT MAY BE!

[paintguy]

https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/ford-retires-gas-powered-cars-in-electric-vehicle-expansion?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, paintguy said:

https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/ford-retires-gas-powered-cars-in-electric-vehicle-expansion?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

I still think they’re guessing on Escape based on Farley’s comments about 2 row crossovers.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, Gurgeh said:

That may be true for mass market hybrid buyers, but not luxury car buyers, like Lincoln customers.

T-dubz may be correct about Lincoln buyers perhaps being older, and therefore may not be as interested in high performance (power wise).

 

Anyway, offering a more-efficient lower-cost hybrid option does not necessarily prevent offering more powerful versions for those who value power.  In my opinion it is similar to Tesla offering a Model Y with single-motor RWD which has much less power than two-motor AWD.  Some (many) buyers are OK with lower power when it saves them significant money.  Same can be said of Tesla RWD Model 3.  Perhaps not all luxury vehicle buyers value power as much as we think.  A hybrid Nautilus with FWD Atkinson powertrain may be enough as base, particularly if electric assist has been upgraded to 100 kW.  Minor upgrade but every bit helps.

[Captainp4]

Has Lincoln really done anything amazing since the 60s continental? Mark viii or whatever was pretty cool, LS was cool, navigator was cool..... The new continental was REALLY close, especially the "coach door" one, but just didn't have whatever "it" is. I feel like my entire life (at least since I started following automotive news in HS) Lincoln had some really cool concept or plan that was just around the corner and never came because -insert some economic or social disaster-. If the Ford family is so against killing the brand why don't they fight harder to make it relevant?

-owner of 64 Continental and 2017 MKC

Edited August 30, 2023 by Captainp4

[silvrsvt]

13 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

If the Ford family is so against killing the brand why don't they fight harder to make it relevant?

 

Ultimately it boils down to this-Lincoln is nothing more than the chocolate frosting on the Ford cake...

 

The thing is that Luxury market is kind of fickle-Lincoln isn't about chasing clout or being the It thing. I live in a fairly wealthy area and the current fad is lower end Audis or Teslas. 

 

I was looking at Lexus sales over the years and they sell about 300K cars in North America, but they offer 10-11 different products too. Lincoln offers only 3 and sells about 90-100K+ units...

[Captainp4]

5 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Ultimately it boils down to this-Lincoln is nothing more than the chocolate frosting on the Ford cake...

 

The thing is that Luxury market is kind of fickle-Lincoln isn't about chasing clout or being the It thing. I live in a fairly wealthy area and the current fad is lower end Audis or Teslas. 

 

I was looking at Lexus sales over the years and they sell about 300K cars in North America, but they offer 10-11 different products too. Lincoln offers only 3 and sells about 90-100K+ units...

Yeah, I mean I understand they're probably still making money with lower volumes and such a premium for not a lot of change from the Ford versions.. but if we can find money to develop a 300k dollar mustang we can squeeze a "halo" Lincoln out if they really care about the brand instead of wild concepts that never see production over and over again.

[ExplorerDude]

Lincoln’s Product Plans have changed so many times in the last 24 months. There were so many plans that were canceled and shelved, some because of resources and COVID. Chiefly, the most concrete ones were the Rivian based SUV and the Corsair coupe. I feel for the teams that put so much work into these products just to have them shelved, it’s demoralizing.

 

These are absolutely confirmed:

2024MY Nautilus, all-new

2024MY Aviator, refresh

2025MY Navigator/L, all-new mostly

2026MY 7-Seater BEV SUV from Oakville

2027MY Compact BEV SUV

 

There are rumors of other BEVs that aren’t SUVs or CUVs……

 

 

 

[silvrsvt]

6 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Yeah, I mean I understand they're probably still making money with lower volumes and such a premium for not a lot of change from the Ford versions.. but if we can find money to develop a 300k dollar mustang we can squeeze a "halo" Lincoln out if they really care about the brand instead of wild concepts that never see production over and over again.

 

Part of it is that the Mustang and how its perceived makes it much easier to sell a super car like the GTD to the public.

 

What does Lincoln really have that will resonate with people that it can sell a 300K car? The Caddy Cequistic or whatever its called is pretty horrible from a styling stand point on the outside IMO

 

I can maybe see a 150K Lincoln one day, but it has to be really good. 

[The Handler]

The luxury car market is too saturated. 

[Captainp4]

5 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Part of it is that the Mustang and how its perceived makes it much easier to sell a super car like the GTD to the public.

 

What does Lincoln really have that will resonate with people that it can sell a 300K car? The Caddy Cequistic or whatever its called is pretty horrible from a styling stand point on the outside IMO

 

I can maybe see a 150K Lincoln one day, but it has to be really good. 

Well, that's kind of my point. What's a luxury brand if it doesn't have vehicles that can command luxury prices? It's not hard to get a superduty over 100k if you start checking off options.. Lincoln should command that or double easily from a flagship model if it was a true effort from a true luxury brand.

65 Continental was 6300
65 GT350 was 4500

2024 Continental should command 420, 000 ??
 

[Bellanca]

The Navigator can top out near $130K so I don’t think a $150K halo car seems that far out of reach. I am definitely not the target Lincoln demographic but I just love these cars(I had a Continental BL, and am on my third Aviator BL) and want to see them succeed. They can do it when they put their minds to it but what seems to happen more often than not is they just let the products rot on the vine. I will say they’ve gotten better in the last 5 years but there’s still room for improvement. 

[AM222]

9 hours ago, tbone said:

Is Ford/Lincoln even paying attention to what customers might want?  You can get any color you want as long as it’s black…

Ford tends to abandon highly competitive segments when their model becomes dated and sales start to drop. 

Right now Ford is filling in the blanks in different regions by exporting vehicles from China like the all-new Territory (aka Equator Sport), Mondeo (aka Taurus in the Middle East), and all-new Lincoln Nautilus to markets than need them. Ford won't invest in local production, but they'll send these vehicles to markets that steel need them. 





Non-Ford Icons 2-row vehicles (ICE or EV) might survive this way in the future.