Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[Deanh]

17 minutes ago, akirby said:

Are you sure about that?  I remember a 6.6L Trans Am only putting out only 189 hp in the mid to late 70s.  Everything from 75 to the 90s was pretty anemic.  The move to more and more power and efficiency didn’t really start in earnest until the turn of the century.

and MAN has it been a ride!...the 5.0 in particular and holds a candle for yours truly.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

is this just a case of bad translation???? .MILAN — Carmaker Stellantis believes inside combustion engine (ICE) automobiles might be on the highway till 2050, making it essential to comprise their carbon emissions till they’re lastly changed by totally electrical ones.

 

Stellantis may be referring to vehicles in operation, rather than sales of new vehicles. While there will still be ICE automobiles in operation in 2050, governments will likely restrict where they're allowed (for example, they will almost certainly be banned in city centers), and they will be subject to higher fees and taxes compared to ZEV.

[Deanh]

19 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Stellantis may be referring to vehicles in operation, rather than sales of new vehicles. While there will still be ICE automobiles in operation in 2050, governments will likely restrict where they're allowed (for example, they will almost certainly be banned in city centers), and they will be subject to higher fees and taxes compared to ZEV.

I was chuckling at the Inside Combustion Engine, lol....instead of Internal Combustion Engine....Italian translation?...in regards to Govt restriction...yay...just what we need...MORE Govt intervention telling us whats good for us and the Environment...meanwhile Chinas F you reaction is a new Coal burning powerplant every two weeks....probably to power their booming BEV market......

Edited September 8, 2023 by Deanh

[Texasota]

35 minutes ago, akirby said:

Are you sure about that?  I remember a 6.6L Trans Am only putting out only 189 hp in the mid to late 70s.  Everything from 75 to the 90s was pretty anemic.  The move to more and more power and efficiency didn’t really start in earnest until the turn of the century.

Yes, you are right. But, technology and innovation did eventually overcome the performance problems caused by the pollution controls.

[Rick73]

8 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Yes, you are right. But, technology and innovation did eventually overcome the performance problems caused by the pollution controls.

I’m not sure average buyers view “performance” in the same light as most on this forum; as somewhat else mentioned earlier.  Average drivers are probably not auto enthusiasts, and only think they need 300 HP if someone tells them they do.  Before pollution controls were added, many Ford and other cars drove around with engines that had modest amounts of power.  Most 289 or 302 Mustang, Fairlane, etc. only had +/- 140 Net HP or less, though more torque than a naturally-aspirated 140 HP 4-cylinder today.  And base cars often had less than 100 HP Net, like 6-cylinder Mustangs and Mavericks.

 

I wonder some times if buyers could be influence to buy smaller and more efficient ICE and Hybrids as easily as buying a BEV.  I know most buyers don’t want either, but if they had to choose …..

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I’m not sure average buyers view “performance” in the same light as most on this forum; as somewhat else mentioned earlier.  Average drivers are probably not auto enthusiasts, and only think they need 300 HP if someone tells them they do.  Before pollution controls were added, many Ford and other cars drove around with engines that had modest amounts of power.  Most 289 or 302 Mustang, Fairlane, etc. only had +/- 140 Net HP or less, though more torque than a naturally-aspirated 140 HP 4-cylinder today.  And base cars often had less than 100 HP Net, like 6-cylinder Mustangs and Mavericks.

 

I wonder some times if buyers could be influence to buy smaller and more efficient ICE and Hybrids as easily as buying a BEV.  I know most buyers don’t want either, but if they had to choose …..

I remember driving 4.0L explorers and rangers with 168 hp and thought it was perfectly adequate.

[paintguy]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

I remember driving 4.0L explorers and rangers with 168 hp and thought it was perfectly adequate.

And recall mid 90's Mustang GT down  about 100 HP vs my 2018 2.3L Ecoboost. Thought the old Mustang was "hot".

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, paintguy said:

And recall mid 90's Mustang GT down  about 100 HP vs my 2018 2.3L Ecoboost. Thought the old Mustang was "hot".

Yes.  I remember the mustang cobra only having about 320 hp.

[AM222]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:43 PM, silvrsvt said:

And the refining of Oil and its transportation doesn't do the same thing? Not including other geopolitical issues. 

 

Eventually/hopefully battery recycling will make the production closed looped so its just localized to its region. 

Depends how you look at it. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, as of 2022, these are the energy sources in the US: 60.2% fossil fuels, 18.2% nuclear, 21.5% renewable.

With today's technology, BEVs rely on mined raw materials for its batteries, and fossil fuels (energy source) to charge them. 

Sadly, fossil fuels still remain as the leading energy source globally. 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by AM222

[silvrsvt]

24 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Depends how you look at it. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, as of 2022, these are the energy sources in the US: 60.2% fossil fuels, 18.2% nuclear, 21.5% renewable.

With today's technology, BEVs rely on mined raw materials for its batteries, and fossil fuels (energy source) to charge them. 

Sadly, fossil fuels still remain as the leading energy source globally. 

 

But your conveniently forgetting that electrical grid is also going through a decarbonization process.

 

I know my state wants to get rid of Natural gas (better than coal when it comes to Co2 and accounts 40% of our power) by 2035. they are putting in wind farms off the coast, but I'll be suprised if they can do it in 12 years. Maybe 20. 

[AM222]

23 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But your conveniently forgetting that electrical grid is also going through a decarbonization process.

 

I know my state wants to get rid of Natural gas (better than coal when it comes to Co2 and accounts 40% of our power) by 2035. they are putting in wind farms off the coast, but I'll be suprised if they can do it in 12 years. Maybe 20. 

If every state, and every other country can do the same by 2035, then good. 

Putting energy source emissions aside, the EV ownership experience still varies depending on where you live. 

I'm guessing Ford knows it wouldn't be wise to kill its mainstream ICE models this decade. I wouldn't be surprised if Ford imports more ICE model to North America to fill some of the gaps. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by AM222

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But your conveniently forgetting that electrical grid is also going through a decarbonization process.

 

I know my state wants to get rid of Natural gas (better than coal when it comes to Co2 and accounts 40% of our power) by 2035. they are putting in wind farms off the coast, but I'll be suprised if they can do it in 12 years. Maybe 20. 

wind farms...lol...talk about major hiccups...the off shore monstrosity's are enduring all sets of issues and delays...and reality...it takes fossil fuels to manufacture the damn useless things ( 55% by the way manufactured in China, )  ....same story...with every "answer" comes another set of issues...IMO the best answer is probably Nuclear...but THAT comes with its own set of issues as well...especially in times of War...

Edited September 8, 2023 by Deanh

[GearheadGrrrl]

After hydro, wind is the best investment in renewables- unlike solar they don't go dead at night and produce megawatts of power from a small footprint. There's a couple gigawatts of wind power within 50 miles of my home and it's been a real boon to the economy- Especially for the county of less than 5000 with so-so cropland and no tourist attractions. With the tax revenue from wind power they can maintain their highways and a system of county parks that is the envy of larger counties. Meanwhile, farmers are as successful as ever raising crops and livestock under the wind turbines.

[Rangers09]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

After hydro, wind is the best investment in renewables- unlike solar they don't go dead at night and produce megawatts of power from a small footprint. There's a couple gigawatts of wind power within 50 miles of my home and it's been a real boon to the economy- Especially for the county of less than 5000 with so-so cropland and no tourist attractions. With the tax revenue from wind power they can maintain their highways and a system of county parks that is the envy of larger counties. Meanwhile, farmers are as successful as ever raising crops and livestock under the wind turbines.

 

Sadly, even hydro is being negated by the prolific complainers/protesters. We are > 98% renewable, mostly because of our numerous dams. However, the new dam coming online next year is probably the last one we will be able to build.

 

If we can't build more dams, I am hoping to see on/offshore wind farms, run of stream generating and tidal generating capacities expanded. Away from the coast, they can also use solar, with lack of sun at night not an issue for us, as we have loads of water behind the existing dams for night time.

[Deanh]

6 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

 

Sadly, even hydro is being negated by the prolific complainers/protesters. We are > 98% renewable, mostly because of our numerous dams. However, the new dam coming online next year is probably the last one we will be able to build.

 

If we can't build more dams, I am hoping to see on/offshore wind farms, run of stream generating and tidal generating capacities expanded. Away from the coast, they can also use solar, with lack of sun at night not an issue for us, as we have loads of water behind the existing dams for night time.

the retards here in Cal are literally dismantling Damns, and then compalin of droughts .....and blame Farming....water storage be ( no pun intended ) damned

[Captainp4]

23 hours ago, akirby said:

Are you sure about that?  I remember a 6.6L Trans Am only putting out only 189 hp in the mid to late 70s.  Everything from 75 to the 90s was pretty anemic.  The move to more and more power and efficiency didn’t really start in earnest until the turn of the century.

That's what I was thinking.. you were really doing something if you had 200-240hp from the early 70s up until the mid 90s for GM (LS1, ~315hp in the F-body and vette I believe), took Ford a little longer to get the modular above 300 (05 mustang I think was 300) aside from limited production 4v versions. Not that it helped GM any sales wise having more power, but.. almost everything was anemic for a couple of decades after 72/3. One thing a lot of people don't realize though is the switch between SAE net and gross at the same time as the emissions crack downs, so the power losses appeared worse than they were if using the same hp rating system, and the lowering of compression ratios on almost everything with the loss of leaded gas. Was a lot going on at the same time contributing to sharp drop in HP numbers.

[T-dubz]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

the retards here in Cal are literally dismantling Damns, and then compalin of droughts .....and blame Farming....water storage be ( no pun intended ) damned

Not sure if this is true or not, but I read a story not too long ago that talked about Californians watering their lawns multiple times a week, up to every day of the week, in the middle of the drought. Water has been such a big issue there that I couldn’t believe it. Where I live, it’s two days a week, and when spring/summer rolls around, it’s down to one day. 

[ice-capades]

16 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Not sure if this is true or not, but I read a story not too long ago that talked about Californians watering their lawns multiple times a week, up to every day of the week, in the middle of the drought. Water has been such a big issue there that I couldn’t believe it. Where I live, it’s two days a week, and when spring/summer rolls around, it’s down to one day. 

 

Similar to your area... just look at Las Vegas which has water management and conservation down to a science. The are very specific regulations regarding water usage, including washing cars and watering lawns. Residents can and are fined for excessive water usage, or usage outside of the prescribed days and hours, including excessive water runoff into streets. Landscaping is also regulated to limit and reduce the use of lawns including millions of dollars paid each year to encourage property owners to replace lawn landscaping with desert landscaping. 

 

And for those thinking of all the water in front of The Mirage, Treasure Island (TI) and Bellagio that were built by Steve Wynn originally, here's some related information to answer questions. The water attractions had to be approved as part of the building plans, including the water volume, evaporation rates, etc. The initial water for the properties was purchased and then trucked to the properties. The 8-acre lake in front of Bellagio includes a water treatment plant that processes the clean waste water from the hotel which is then used to replenish the lake water lost due to evaporation.  

 

[rperez817]

6 hours ago, AM222 said:

I'm guessing Ford knows it wouldn't be wise to kill its mainstream ICE models this decade

 

If Model e and Pro divisions combined don't comprise the vast majority of revenue for Ford Motor Company overall by the end of the decade, the company will be in serious trouble. It's essential that Ford reduce complexity and product overlap in its Blue division, which means that killing more mainstream ICE models globally (beyond Escape and Edge) may be necessary.

[GearheadGrrrl]

3 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

Sadly, even hydro is being negated by the prolific complainers/protesters. We are > 98% renewable, mostly because of our numerous dams. However, the new dam coming online next year is probably the last one we will be able to build.

 

If we can't build more dams, I am hoping to see on/offshore wind farms, run of stream generating and tidal generating capacities expanded. Away from the coast, they can also use solar, with lack of sun at night not an issue for us, as we have loads of water behind the existing dams for night time.

The environmentalists opposition to hydro power is historic- One of their seminal groups, the Sierra Club, lost an early battle to stop a dam and they haven't forgotten it!

[Deanh]

25 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

The environmentalists opposition to hydro power is historic- One of their seminal groups, the Sierra Club, lost an early battle to stop a dam and they haven't forgotten it!

but they are fine with erecting eye sore windfarms right?.....which dont have ANY side effects regarding wildlife and the environment...SIDEBAR ( Texas ) At ERCOT's request, the Biden administration declared a power emergency in Texas on Thursday, waiving some air-pollution rules so generators in the state could produce more electricity.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Deanh

[DeluxeStang]

My reaction to watching a thread about crossovers being discontinued somehow turning into a discussion on water conservation and regional politics. 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

If Model e and Pro divisions combined don't comprise the vast majority of revenue for Ford Motor Company overall by the end of the decade, the company will be in serious trouble. It's essential that Ford reduce complexity and product overlap in its Blue division, which means that killing more mainstream ICE models globally (beyond Escape and Edge) may be necessary.

With respect, you’re painting yourself into a corner with that a stance on Model E and Pro divisions, not that anyone here will remember even in five years time…. Yeah, lots can change in that time but Ford needs to keep Ford Blue highly profitable and stop gutting the crap out of vehicle development. That so called complexity and overlap is exactly where it adds a ton of customers but the accounting geniuses that rule Ford will always argue that less is  better and then wonder where all the buyers have gone….

Edited September 9, 2023 by jpd80
Autotext typos and grammar

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, Deanh said:

At ERCOT's request, the Biden administration declared a power emergency in Texas on Thursday, waiving some air-pollution rules so generators in the state could produce more electricity.

Request to cut back on power has been going on through much of summer when temperatures have been exceeding 100 F on a regular basis, and due to high humidity, it has felt like 110 to 115 F.  It’s the first summer I’ve wanted to stay indoor most of the time.  Below is a typical request from ERCOT, which makes me question how we would ACTUALLY charge millions of BEVs, and at what cost.  Not saying that it may not be necessary long-term, but we need to get ahead on power supply before demand causes blackouts, even if just rolling blackouts.  If ERCOT can’t keep up and we have blackouts, I’m certain many Texans will be pissed at BEV owners for contributing to overload, whether justified or not.

 

[jpd80]

The with early adopters abandoning Ford’s BEVs, the goldilocks period for Lightning and Mach E is ending.

Looking at paltry Transit EV sales is also uninspiring…..889 sales last month and 4,500 year to date.

 

So with Ford having Blue Oval Center coming on line in the next couple of years, Ford has committed big time

to both Electric trucks and existing battery technology…….which begs the question of whether Ford will again

be behind the curve with BEVs having perceived inadequate range for the market in a couple of years time?

 

Bottom line here is that Ford is throwing a ton of money at Model E products and infrastructure in the hope

that sales are going to catch fire in the next two years, is it unreasonable to suggest that there’s a huge gap

in perception between where BEV sales are today and what people (and Ford) expect to happen in two or three years time?

Edited September 9, 2023 by jpd80