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rperez817

Electric Vehicle discussion thread - Ford related

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23 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

Remember when the Ford Excursion came out back in 1999?  There were articles in Automotive News about customers being shamed by Sierra Club types for buying such a large SUV.

 

Yes sir, I remember that. But Sierra Club's ire seemed to have been directed at Ford Motor Company itself, rather than Excursion customers. Here is an excerpt from a Sierra Club press release in 1999.

 

The Sierra Club awarded Ford Motor Company the "Exxon Valdez Award" for environmental destruction to recognize Ford's newest sport-utility vehicle (SUV), the Excursion. The Excursion is a four-ton "super duty" sport utility vehicle that guzzles enough gas to make Saddam Hussein smile. At a time of mounting concern over global warming, air pollution, and oil exploration in fragile wilderness areas, this gas-guzzling SUV is a rolling monument to environmental destruction.

"The Excursion guzzles gas and pollutes the air," said Daniel Becker, Director of the Sierra Club's Global Warming and Energy Program. "It's basically a garbage truck that dumps its pollution into the sky."

The Excursion is so large that it won't be classified as a "light vehicle," the category for normal-sized cars, trucks and SUVs. The Sierra Club is urging the Clinton Administration to strengthen clean-air laws so the Excursion and other SUVs will be allowed to pollute no more than cars.

"The Ford Excursion is a rolling ad for improving auto pollution standards," Becker said. "The Clinton Administration is deciding how much to restrict pollution from SUVs, and their proposal has a loophole big enough to drive a Ford Excursion through. Ford has cost-effective technology sitting on the shelf that would improve gas mileage and cut pollution. That technology would more than pay for itself for consumers in lower gasoline costs."

Ford's Excursion was conspicuously absent from their display at the Detroit Auto Show in January. At a time Ford Motor Company is stressing a new-found commitment to the environment, the massive gas-guzzler projects the wrong image. On December 21, 1998, Business Week quoted a Ford insider as saying, "The Excursion isn't a thing you want to roll out with trumpets and brass bands."

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41 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

Remember when the Ford Excursion came out back in 1999?  There were articles in Automotive News about customers being shamed by Sierra Club types for buying such a large SUV.

 

But no one had any problem with all the Suburban's on the road!

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Again, the big word is AFFORDABILITY. You can't force consumers to buy what they can't afford. You just create a black market for ICE parts a la Cuba to keep those cars on the road forever. I get it that we are running out of time with climate change, but you can't push a square peg into a round hole. 2035 sounds like a good goal, but so much more needs to be done to get there. And so many assumptions like environmentalists running Congress for the next 15 years. 

 

EV is going to be way cheaper to keep on the road than ICE in the future so you can stop the hand wring. There won't be a black market because ICE cars are not illegal. Hobbyist and enthusiast will keep driving old ICE vehicles (I plan to) but the majority of the fleet will be phased out naturally because they are no longer economical to own and operate vs. BEV.

 

Car companies are about 24 months away from manufacturing cost parity on BEV vs. ICE. Whether they decide to pass that cost saving to consumer is unclear but market forces will eventually settle that question - either consumers accept higher acquisition cost in exchange for lower operating cost, or... something else. All the major car companies in the US will have at least one BEV in the low $40k or high $30k range for sale in 2022. These will be cost competitive with ~$30k CUV from a total ownership cost perspective over 5 or 6 years. That's plenty affordable given the average price of the new vehicle today.

 

BEV accounted for 17% of car sales in October in Germany and PHEV another 13% so plug in cars now has 30% market share in the largest market in Europe. So if you think it is impossible to get close to 80 or 90% BEV by 2035 that is because you have your eyes and ears closed or reading too much rightwing propaganda. We will get there in most markets before 2035. This is why F-150 Lightning is a 2022 model, not 2032. Car companies are seeing buying intents change at a rapid pace - much faster than they anticipated just 18 months ago. They all know that most people are either buying their first BEV or the very last non-PHEV ICE right now - so that is driving their investment decision.

 

Edit: go read about Farley's statement on 600k EV sales in 24 months in the other thread... Remember what I posted before that adoption of BEV is now supercharged and ICE sales could collapse in a very short time? Ford's data must be telling them the same thing... 

 

Edited by bzcat

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46 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

Yes sir, I remember that. But Sierra Club's ire seemed to have been directed at Ford Motor Company itself, rather than Excursion customers. Here is an excerpt from a Sierra Club press release in 1999.....

 

The Sierra Club, as an organization, was critical of Ford (especially Bill Ford) when the Excursion was first introduced.  But California Sierra Club members were publicly shaming private individuals who purchased an Excursion.  I recall reading about this in Automotive News (I think).

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On 11/16/2021 at 6:35 PM, Stray Kat said:

How many members here would actually lay down their hard earned money for a BEV? 
 

Personally I could easily justify at least one of the two daily drivers in our family be a BEV. 

 

If the Maverick was an EV I would have already ordered one. 

I would not.  Not even with the tax credits. I could not comfortably drive across state in a Mach-E, for instance, without worrying about charge status, charging stations, or the time it took to charge. Example: I had a 1998 Mercury Mystique V-6 with a 5-speed.  Although I loved the car, it had (what I at the time thought) was a ridiculously small range: 300 miles. However, that's the top of the current crop of BEVs. And why purchase a car that does not at least provide you with the freedom to take a trip cross state? Or on vacation? Or drive it on an interstate? Or drive it to a different state?  I still think a plug-in is a better alternative (even if the little Escape's ICE only has a 10 gallon fuel tank).  

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3 hours ago, BoomerSooner said:

I would not.  Not even with the tax credits. I could not comfortably drive across state in a Mach-E, for instance, without worrying about charge status, charging stations, or the time it took to charge. Example: I had a 1998 Mercury Mystique V-6 with a 5-speed.  Although I loved the car, it had (what I at the time thought) was a ridiculously small range: 300 miles. However, that's the top of the current crop of BEVs. And why purchase a car that does not at least provide you with the freedom to take a trip cross state? Or on vacation? Or drive it on an interstate? Or drive it to a different state?  I still think a plug-in is a better alternative (even if the little Escape's ICE only has a 10 gallon fuel tank).  


What is your normal commute that you do 80-90-95% of the time? 
 

I just checked the distance from Lawton to Dallas-it’s 197 miles one way. I’m sure after driving 3 hours or so, 20-30 minute break to charge up 80% or about 240 Or so miles of range isn’t too horrible with a Mach E ER. 

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7 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Define old? Your talking about banning vehicles that are 20-30-40-50 years old? Cars from the 1980s are popular with my generation now since that is what we grew up with...so they are going to ban the part time use of ICE powered cars? I don't see that happening.

 

ICE will eventually age out from the used car market by themselves 

 

Eh, they'll try to, just wait.

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On 11/18/2021 at 10:04 AM, akirby said:


I’m not saying this isn’t solveable or that we shouldn’t do anything.  I’m just pointing out problems that need to be solved before we can go 100% bev.

 

If I live in an apartment and I’m almost empty and plan to stop to charge on the way to work and there is a 2 hour rolling blackout I’m screwed.  Or an extended multi day blackout like Texas last year.  Why doesn’t matter when you’re sitting on E and have no way to refuel.

 

Stop thinking only about urban areas and houses with overnight charging and solar power and think of all the people in rural areas especially in the rural South and the Plains.  You can’t go 100% BEV without solving their problems too.

True.  Surveys have mentioned that often there is no access to ev charging stations (see https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2021/04/what-makes-people-disloyal-to-their-electric-vehicles/?gclid=CjwKCAiA1uKMBhAGEiwAxzvX93AOp-oHgZ1HZZHIZb1KVrLiaZtU0Gss-s8hgLrl7YkRAlvkvlLh7xoC-_gQAvD_BwE)

 

Even so, most built rental stocks in many areas were built prior to EV and it's often cost preventative to install such stations where parking has already been fully allocated for required visitors and disabled parking stalls. Other issues are the total electrical component to the building where its becomes so cost prohibited especially if your area has rental increase restrictions due to affordability etc. Even my brand new condo had barely enough visitor parking stalls for a 64 unit building (5 stall) which included disability stalls. The developer installed level 1 outlets throughout the parkade, toting it to City council as EV friendly but they left the strata corporation to deal with the aftermath of not being able to separate billing usage of electricity because they outlets were not separately metered nor separated from the main building electrical account.  That meant over $50k minimum to rewire 3 levels of concrete parking to try to equally allocate electricity usage from ev owners and non ev users and those that basically used that outlet for non vehicle charging (ie vacuuming their car). It was a nightmare. Our renter said at lvl 1, it only charged up to 45% of his new tesla using 24hrs of electricity.  We dumped the condo as we were going to be charged a flat fee of $50/mth for his usage but where we are, rent increases are restricted to 1.4%.

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Currently BEVs are too costly to buy for consumers.  Have to get the cost down over the next 5 years which I suspect will happen.

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1 hour ago, llinthicum1 said:

Currently BEVs are too costly to buy for consumers.  Have to get the cost down over the next 5 years which I suspect will happen.

 

Jim Farley is working hard to ensure that Ford can improve affordability for BEV. He spoke about this back in September at the Detroit Homecoming VIII events. Ford CEO Farley calls for making EVs more affordable, bringing mining back to US (detroitnews.com)

 

“I’m deeply worried about the affordability,” said Farley Saturday during a discussion as part of the Detroit Homecoming VIII events, during a live-streamed interview with Mary Kramer, the director of the annual event.

"Average people cannot afford these vehicles and we have a lot of work to do to make them more affordable. That’s the one that keeps me up at night.”

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On 11/24/2021 at 12:11 AM, llinthicum1 said:

Currently BEVs are too costly to buy for consumers.  Have to get the cost down over the next 5 years which I suspect will happen.

A way around that would be leasing with a good guaranteed buy back price, that overcomes a lot of the higher price issue. There should be stronger demand for used BEVs in about four or five years.

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The big issue I can see with EVs is that they are sort of like electronic devices-there is always something newer/better coming down the road and older EVs won’t hold their value until say the range issue standardizes on say all cars can go at least 300-350 miles in any weather conditions. 
 

ICE is more or less immune to this due to the market being more mature and the rate of change not being as great. 40-50 years ago cars where cheaper and semi disposable that where lucky to last 100k or so miles. Now cars are basically manitance free outside of wear items for 100k and can last 15-20 years without a major repair.   

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

The big issue I can see with EVs is that they are sort of like electronic devices-there is always something newer/better coming down the road and older EVs won’t hold their value until say the range issue standardizes on say all cars can go at least 300-350 miles in any weather conditions. 
 

ICE is more or less immune to this due to the market being more mature and the rate of change not being as great. 40-50 years ago cars where cheaper and semi disposable that where lucky to last 100k or so miles. Now cars are basically manitance free outside of wear items for 100k and can last 15-20 years without a major repair.   

 

I agree with you mostly, but would also argue with the increased tech in vehicles, ICE too are becoming more like electronic devices with something new/better/making things outdated.   The OTA update ability does help in this regard though.

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2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I agree with you mostly, but would also argue with the increased tech in vehicles, ICE too are becoming more like electronic devices with something new/better/making things outdated.   The OTA update ability does help in this regard though.


The primary driver of this is limitations with range and the issue of recharging. ICE just works and refueling is a nonissue, so actual range is not even a consern. People have a fear of batteries wearing out etc that need to be shown that isn’t really the case in long term ownership. 
 

i know of this is mitigated by other factors, but given my experience with people, people don’t like change.  
 

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:


The primary driver of this is limitations with range and the issue of recharging. ICE just works and refueling is a nonissue, so actual range is not even a consern. People have a fear of batteries wearing out etc that need to be shown that isn’t really the case in long term ownership. 
 

i know of this is mitigated by other factors, but given my experience with people, people don’t like change.  
 

 

Oh I agree with you, and I have a lot of the same concerns.

 

I was just saying that on the tech front with younger buyers, ICE models can have the same "outdated" feeling tech wise.

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19 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Oh I agree with you, and I have a lot of the same concerns.

 

I was just saying that on the tech front with younger buyers, ICE models can have the same "outdated" feeling tech wise.

 

That's certainly true both figuratively and literally. 

 

People coming into driving age now have grown up in a world that are almost entirely digital so the idea of BEV doesn't necessarily seem "new". There is no adjustment period... for 16 years old today, Tesla has always been an establishment car company, like Netflix has always been a streaming company (I had to explain to my 14 years old nephew that Netflix was a mail-in DVD rental company not that long ago).  

 

And from a literal sense, if you are designing transportation device from scratch today, you would never start with internal combustion engine that has thermal-efficiency in the 20% range that belch the rest of the 80% as pollution nonstop into the atmosphere on average for about 30 years; and requires constant refueling from fix distribution points controlled by an gaggle of petroleum companies. What kind of dystopian nightmare machine is this when you think about it? 

Edited by bzcat

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22 hours ago, silvrsvt said:


The primary driver of this is limitations with range and the issue of recharging. ICE just works and refueling is a nonissue, so actual range is not even a consern. People have a fear of batteries wearing out etc that need to be shown that isn’t really the case in long term ownership. 
 

i know of this is mitigated by other factors, but given my experience with people, people don’t like change.  
 

 

I would think everyone has had bad experiences with battery operated devices over the years. They can be a real pain at times, especially when the battery gets low on power. 

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So, as we look back into the fledgling era of ICE powered vehicles, the fuel was sold in containers first which seemed impractical in that era when the main source of transportation could "fuel up" by enjoying a nice bag of oats before going out into the community. "emissions" were left on the side of the road drawing complaints from the community that the mess was a pain to clean up. But, when private companies began developing fueling stations where a driver can pull up, pour the fuel into the car with a metered device and be on his or her way with little fuss, the previous mode of transportation quickly fell out of favor and became a hobby. The federal government did not intervene to make this a reality, only providing the needed regulation so that your average John and Jane Doe does not get harmed while using the apparatus and that the fueling stations worked on one standard to properly fuel the vehicles no matter what vehicle was pulled up to the station.

This needs to happen again...private companies need to develop fueling stations for EV's and make it as efficient and easy to perform that anyone can refuel with ease and I must emphasize that it also must be done quickly...not "NASCAR quickly" mind you, but plugging the EV into a refueling station for a fill up should take less than ten minutes to complete. Mr Musk has done this with his Supercharging network, but it is a "closed loop" that only works for Tesla vehicles. Other companies like Sunoco, ExxonMobil, Shell, etc or their modern equivalents need to step in to provide this service for one standard so that all EV's can equally use the refueling stations. 

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19 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

That's certainly true both figuratively and literally. 

 

People coming into driving age now have grown up in a world that are almost entirely digital so the idea of BEV doesn't necessarily seem "new". There is no adjustment period... for 16 years old today, Tesla has always been an establishment car company, like Netflix has always been a streaming company (I had to explain to my 14 years old nephew that Netflix was a mail-in DVD rental company not that long ago).  

 

And from a literal sense, if you are designing transportation device from scratch today, you would never start with internal combustion engine that has thermal-efficiency in the 20% range that belch the rest of the 80% as pollution nonstop into the atmosphere on average for about 30 years; and requires constant refueling from fix distribution points controlled by an gaggle of petroleum companies. What kind of dystopian nightmare machine is this when you think about it? 

 

But that also is the same generation that doesn't get their drivers license till much later in life too. Last article I saw said something like less then 50% of drivers 17 years old (the average age you can get full driving rights in most states) have their licenses. I'm on the downside to 50 and my generation it was like 80-90% had them by then. 

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46 minutes ago, twintornados said:

This needs to happen again...private companies need to develop fueling stations for EV's and make it as efficient and easy to perform that anyone can refuel with ease and I must emphasize that it also must be done quickly...not "NASCAR quickly" mind you, but plugging the EV into a refueling station for a fill up should take less than ten minutes to complete. Mr Musk has done this with his Supercharging network, but it is a "closed loop" that only works for Tesla vehicles. Other companies like Sunoco, ExxonMobil, Shell, etc or their modern equivalents need to step in to provide this service for one standard so that all EV's can equally use the refueling stations. 


1) Superchargers do not charge a car in ten minutes. 
2) Superchargers will be open to other vehicles soon. 
3) Everything a Supercharger does Electrify America does for CCS vehicles. 

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1 hour ago, sullynd said:

3) Everything a Supercharger does Electrify America does for CCS vehicles. 

 

I've used Tesla Superchargers with my Model S, and EA for both my Model S and my wife's Mustang Mach-E. One thing that EA has NOT done for my wife and me at least is work properly the first time every time when connecting the vehicle to the charging apparatus. Tesla Superchargers did work on the first try every time.

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Anecdotal at best. I know people who have not had the same experience as you with Superchargers, whereas EA has worked every time I’ve charged my Mach-E. 

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27 minutes ago, sullynd said:

Anecdotal at best. I know people who have not had the same experience as you with Superchargers, whereas EA has worked every time I’ve charged my Mach-E. 

 

Good to hear that your personal experience involving EA and your Mustang Mach-E is a positive one sullynd sir, pun intended. 😀

 

Beyond individual anecdotes like ours, J.D. Power and PlugShare did a study involving 6,647 plug-in vehicle owners in their U.S. Electric Vehicle Experience (EVX) Public Charging Study. As expected, customer satisfaction with Tesla Superchargers far exceeds that for other DCFC public charging providers including EA. 2021 U.S. Electric Vehicle Experience (EVX) Public Charging Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

 

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3 hours ago, sullynd said:

3) Everything a Supercharger does Electrify America does for CCS vehicles. 

 

and therein lies the issue...one standard for ALL electric charging. This is where the Gov't "could" step in, but won't. Make one standard for charging. Remember when unleaded gas first hit the market and the cars required to use that fuel had a smaller opening in the filler neck so that the "old style" leaded gas nozzle would not go into it? What a cluster-f*#k that was....adapters were made and in some cases, people would just punch it out to fit the other nozzle in. However, as time went by, the new standard became the "way of life" as all the older cars slowly dropped out of the daily use scene. This will happen again but there needs to be standardization so all EV's will charge at all stations regardless of station owner or manufacturer.   

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I know Ford and others are working on faster charging solutions and I think that's probably what will happen. But I did see an article a while back where someone was working on a way to just swap the whole battery out quickly. Probably not practical with so many different battery styles/connectors/brands/sizes etc, but if there was a way to standardize them and make it as simple as pulling your car in and pushing a button that would be pretty cool. Just swap in an already charged pack. I know it's almost impossible, but thought it was a cool idea.

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