UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[hllywd]

8 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I’ve never claimed anything to the contrary. I’ve said from day one I have my doubts about the strategy. 

Fuzzy, I'm with you brother. This strategy is puzzling. And it's creating discord between union brothers and sisters. There will be much to repair, not only between hourly and company but also between union members, once an agreement is reached. It's getting bad!

[hllywd]

4 hours ago, T-dubz said:

I don’t know, I think I would prefer the way unifor is negotiating personally. When you throw out crazy numbers like 46% raises, that does not help to get the public on your side. If anything, it makes the public think you are crazy. If the uaw’s main talking point was that it takes 8 years to get to the top tier, I think the public would be a bit more sympathetic. Everyone can relate to not getting raises for a long period of time and would surely back that cause, but no one can relate to 46% increases. 

I don't think Fain has done an adequate job educating the public (whose support the union must rely on) on why he's asking for certain things. 
 

For example, I don't think we've done an adequate job of explaining to the general public that we aren't randomly pulling 46% out of thin air. 

You can Google "inflation calculator" and enter $27 (the top pay when COLA ended) and 2007 (the year we lost COLA) and it shows that if we never lost COLA, the wage for production workers would be $39.38 today (+48%). 

If our wages merely would've kept pace with inflation, as our union forebears intended, we wouldn't be asking for 46% increase now. The general public thinks we're out of our minds asking for 46% "when nobody else gets those kinds of raises". But I'd be willing to bet the general public gets raises every year that pace with inflation. I think we'd be more successful showing the math rather than trying to tie it to CEO compensation.

[Harley Lover]

14 minutes ago, hllywd said:

But I'd be willing to bet the general public gets raises every year that pace with inflation. 

 

You'd most likely lose that bet. Don't make assumptions just because they support your viewpoint.

[Deanh]

15 minutes ago, hllywd said:

I don't think Fain has done an adequate job educating the public (whose support the union must rely on) on why he's asking for certain things. 
 

For example, I don't think we've done an adequate job of explaining to the general public that we aren't randomly pulling 46% out of thin air. 

You can Google "inflation calculator" and enter $27 (the top pay when COLA ended) and 2007 (the year we lost COLA) and it shows that if we never lost COLA, the wage for production workers would be $39.38 today (+48%). 

If our wages merely would've kept pace with inflation, as our union forebears intended, we wouldn't be asking for 46% increase now. The general public thinks we're out of our minds asking for 46% "when nobody else gets those kinds of raises". But I'd be willing to bet the general public gets raises every year that pace with inflation. I think we'd be more successful showing the math rather than trying to tie it to CEO compensation.

I literally do not know anyone that gets a raise a year....I personally havent had one in 20, then  again being commission its a totally different game, that and we arent Un ionized. Theres also no profit sharing, retirement or pension after retirement.....BUT, I decided this as a career so thats on me Id guess.....

[T-dubz]

At my employer, most raises are based on performance and merit on an individual basis. The very best employees might get a raise every other year and average employees might get one every 3-4 years. If you aren’t performing, you might never get a raise. We got a COLA raise this year, but it’s been a decade or more since the last one. 

[paintguy]

7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Wow,  Reading all these posts on apprenticeships, classifications, it sounds like over the years the negotiating process has created a paper nightmare.

And if "crafts" have a separate vote that can keep a plant "out"?  That is delay a settlement???

 

Sounds like the Federal govt.  The Federal register just grows and grows as the idiots in Congress have to "pass legislation" with their name on it or they are not making their "mark".  I've always thought.."pass a bill that has 50 pages and you have to eliminate 50 pages.

Wish I had saved a printed copy of the International Master Agreement and The local agreement and letters of understanding for my plant. Took up a good a good chunk of space on my bookshelf. Bigger than some travel bibles. Longer than War and Peace.

[HotRunrGuy]

Going back to this 2019 Highlight, why are the ratification bonuses and lump sum payments not being included in the conversation?  Seems like people are ONLY looking at the hourly pay rate.

 

https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/56100-UAW_hourly-1.pdf

 

HRG

[paintguy]

33 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

You'd most likely lose that bet. Don't make assumptions just because they support your viewpoint.

As Ford Salary, retired, I will second that. Raises have been limited. New hires seem to be brought in as "temporary" workers. Good but not great pay. Not a good way to get the best and brightest. I was impressed with some when I retired. Some on the bubble and trying. Others not so much.  As for CEOs, Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Wants to destroy "your" economy. How does that help the membership? Is he living on strike pay amount? 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, hllywd said:

Fuzzy, I'm with you brother. This strategy is puzzling. And it's creating discord between union brothers and sisters. There will be much to repair, not only between hourly and company but also between union members, once an agreement is reached. It's getting bad!

I believe there’s a growing contingent that you won’t ever hear from for fear of being shouted down and shunned that agree with me that with a few tweaks that most recent offer (that we know of) really wasn’t terrible. The only thing I would have liked to see from it is a more robust COLA formula and a shorter (read: 4 or less years) path to top wage. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

You'd most likely lose that bet. Don't make assumptions just because they support your viewpoint.

Im with you. I counter with it would be an easier pill to swallow since it’s a number that can be rationalized and explained rather than arbitrarily tying it to CEO pay increase percentage. 
 

Speaking of which, I would love to see a breakdown of the Big 3 CEOs pay. How much of that obscene number does the company itself pay and how much of the rest of it is from stock options and the like. I’m willing to bet the company itself only pays $5 million or less of that. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, HotRunrGuy said:

Going back to this 2019 Highlight, why are the ratification bonuses and lump sum payments not being included in the conversation?  Seems like people are ONLY looking at the hourly pay rate.

 

https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/56100-UAW_hourly-1.pdf

 

HRG

Im not the only one that doesn’t want the bonuses because they’re taxed as unearned income. Plus the union takes a bigger cut of those which rubs a lot of people wrong. 

[akirby]

52 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im with you. I counter with it would be an easier pill to swallow since it’s a number that can be rationalized and explained rather than arbitrarily tying it to CEO pay increase percentage. 
 

Speaking of which, I would love to see a breakdown of the Big 3 CEOs pay. How much of that obscene number does the company itself pay and how much of the rest of it is from stock options and the like. I’m willing to bet the company itself only pays $5 million or less of that. 

Salary was in the $1.5M range with bonuses being $5m or so and $10m+ in stock/options from what I remember

[akirby]

56 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im not the only one that doesn’t want the bonuses because they’re taxed as unearned income. Plus the union takes a bigger cut of those which rubs a lot of people wrong. 

Bonuses are earned income.  They’re not taxed any higher, they just withhold a higher percentage because they don’t know where you’ll end up at the end of the year and withholding too little could end up having to pay more when you file.

[Captainp4]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:57 PM, akirby said:

8 years might be too long but zero is stupid.  It means a person can walk in off the street and do the job just as well as someone who’s been there for 20 years.  If that’s the case why do I need to keep older employees?  

Honestly, how skilled is a production line spot? I can't imagine it taking more than a month to learn almost all of the positions. They're all pretty much automated, aren't they? Unless I'm grossly wrong about how a production line works, I just see people pushing buttons on pretty much automated machines and watching them do the lifting and fastening for them. I don't see how you can be more skilled or more efficient (and therefore worth more) if you're limited by the line speed anyway. Really don't understand how a line worker can be worth so much an hour, not trying to insult anyone here that is one. I need a day in the life of video to see what's so hard about it.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, hllywd said:

I don't think Fain has done an adequate job educating the public (whose support the union must rely on) on why he's asking for certain things. 
 

For example, I don't think we've done an adequate job of explaining to the general public that we aren't randomly pulling 46% out of thin air. 

You can Google "inflation calculator" and enter $27 (the top pay when COLA ended) and 2007 (the year we lost COLA) and it shows that if we never lost COLA, the wage for production workers would be $39.38 today (+48%). 

If our wages merely would've kept pace with inflation, as our union forebears intended, we wouldn't be asking for 46% increase now. The general public thinks we're out of our minds asking for 46% "when nobody else gets those kinds of raises". But I'd be willing to bet the general public gets raises every year that pace with inflation. I think we'd be more successful showing the math rather than trying to tie it to CEO compensation.

The problem here is you guys have always lived in an alternate reality compared to everyone else.  $27/hr in 2007 is FAR and above what similar factory workers were making and that’s not even including the insane benefits like free healthcare with no deductibles .  $27 is what a registered nurse with a college degree was making back then.  Skilled construction jobs were $20 with few benefits.
 

Good for you that you managed to bargain those higher wages in the past but don’t expect any non union worker to sympathize.  What you had in the past was so overinflated relative to other jobs that the public doesn’t care about inflation or what you would have had because that still represents an overinflated wage especially when benefits are added to the picture.  
 

When you try to rationalize these wage and compensation demands you just sound like the rich kid in school complaining that your dad lowered your allowance from $50/wk to $40/wk while the kids you’re complaining to only get $10/wk.  People making $27/hr today with no pension and who pay for healthcare with deductibles and who haven’t gotten raises in a few years aren’t going to sympathize.  Neither are the people who understand how non competitive labor costs affect Ford’s ability to compete with non union mfrs.

 

Your best bet is to simply ask for inflation adjustments which is easily covered with the 20% offer.  That is something most people would support.

[silvrsvt]

8 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Honestly, how skilled is a production line spot? I can't imagine it taking more than a month to learn almost all of the positions. They're all pretty much automated, aren't they? Unless I'm grossly wrong about how a production line works, I just see people pushing buttons on pretty much automated machines and watching them do the lifting and fastening for them. I don't see how you can be more skilled or more efficient (and therefore worth more) if you're limited by the line speed anyway. Really don't understand how a line worker can be worth so much an hour, not trying to insult anyone here that is one. I need a day in the life of video to see what's so hard about it.

 

Its a lot of repetitive motion on the assembly line and not as much button pushing as you make it out to be.

 

I know limited production engines are more hands on with less automation, which would require more skill.

[Captainp4]

7 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Its a lot of repetitive motion on the assembly line and not as much button pushing as you make it out to be.

 

I know limited production engines are more hands on with less automation, which would require more skill.

So the people on the line tightening lugnuts with a machine that lifts the tire and tightens all the lugnuts at the same time are making the same money as the guy hand building a predator/trinity/whatever?

[silvrsvt]

5 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

So the people on the line tightening lugnuts with a machine that lifts the tire and tightens all the lugnuts at the same time are making the same money as the guy hand building a predator/trinity/whatever?

 

Good question....

[fuzzymoomoo]

32 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Honestly, how skilled is a production line spot? I can't imagine it taking more than a month to learn almost all of the positions. They're all pretty much automated, aren't they? Unless I'm grossly wrong about how a production line works, I just see people pushing buttons on pretty much automated machines and watching them do the lifting and fastening for them.

In body and stamping it’s that way but in final it’s pretty much all manual. It’s not necessarily the skill, it’s the physicality of the jobs people struggle with. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[fuzzymoomoo]

26 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

So the people on the line tightening lugnuts with a machine that lifts the tire and tightens all the lugnuts at the same time are making the same money as the guy hand building a predator/trinity/whatever?

I can’t speak to the niche engine line but typically specialty jobs (usually anything you have to bid on) like inspectors , garage repair, team leaders and utilities do carry a premium. When I was a backup team leader I got an extra 30 cents an hour whenever I filled in as TL. Had I been a full fledged team leader and gone through the team leader training it would have been $1.50. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[Oac98]

UNIFORD FORD DEAL REACHED. NO DETAILS YET.

[Captainp4]

25 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

In body and stamping it’s that way but in final it’s pretty much all manual. It’s not necessarily the skill, it’s the physicality of the jobs people struggle with. 

Assuming final is putting the last plastic pieces on that just clip in when you push them?

[fuzzymoomoo]

11 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Assuming final is putting the last plastic pieces on that just clip in when you push them?

Final assembly is literally everything after paint. Some jobs are great. I loved the door panel job. Yes I had to do both front and rear door but my partner on the job with me alternated cars and I wasn’t tied to an error proofing box so I had a little room to walk. It did have its drawbacks, I couldn’t use a mallet to seat the door so I had to use the palm of my hand. Padded gloves only made it so my hands weren’t bruised. Other jobs are awful. Friends of mine who did the main wiring harness job all tell me it was brutal. The part was heavy and it took a lot of muscle and effort to manipulate it into the correct position. All of those little push pins take their toll after a while. Almost everyone ends up with arthritis at some point because of it. I’m lucky I moved to body when I did but I still have lingering issues from my days in final. The tendinitis in my elbow came from my first week working there and it’s been bothering me something terrible for the last month. I have very little strength in my right arm at the moment because of it. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[Bob Rosadini]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

Honestly, how skilled is a production line spot? I can't imagine it taking more than a month to learn almost all of the positions. They're all pretty much automated, aren't they? Unless I'm grossly wrong about how a production line works, I just see people pushing buttons on pretty much automated machines and watching them do the lifting and fastening for them. I don't see how you can be more skilled or more efficient (and therefore worth more) if you're limited by the line speed anyway. Really don't understand how a line worker can be worth so much an hour, not trying to insult anyone here that is one. I need a day in the life of video to see what's so hard about it.

 

Old Retired guy like me wastes a lot of time watching those videos..in particular if it involves trucks.  And I come away with the idea that I would go nuts doing some of these jobs- like pushing the plastic grills on to the chassis. .."1..put in place, 2, slap left side, 3 slap right side.   Next!   Then again the guys installing groomed instrument panels- a bit more attention required..  Do those jobs get same pay as first example? 

 

[Bob Rosadini]

24 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Final assembly is literally everything after paint. Some jobs are great. I loved the door panel job. Yes I had to do both front and rear door but my partner on the job with me alternated cars and I wasn’t tied to an error proofing box so I had a little room to walk. It did have its drawbacks, I couldn’t use a mallet to seat the door so I had to use the palm of my hand. Padded gloves only made it so my hands weren’t bruised. Other jobs are awful. Friends of mine who did the main wiring harness job all tell me it was brutal. The part was heavy and it took a lot of muscle and effort to manipulate it into the correct position. All of those little push pins take their toll after a while. Almost everyone ends up with arthritis at some point because of it. I’m lucky I moved to body when I did but I still have lingering issues from my days in final. The tendinitis in my elbow came from my first week working there and it’s been bothering me something terrible for the last month. I have very little strength in my right arm at the moment because of it. 

 

You make a point that I  wanted to make in my reply to Capt 4...I think some pay "justification" in the job is the shear boredom and the physical aspect...doesn't have to be heavy to cause wear and pain.  Not everyone would put up with it and if the bucks were not there the turnover wojuld be unreal I imagine.