fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: You make a point that I wanted to make in my reply to Capt 4...I think some pay "justification" in the job is the shear boredom and the physical aspect...doesn't have to be heavy to cause wear and pain. Not everyone would put up with it and if the bucks were not there the turnover wojuld be unreal I imagine. My arm injury happened installing windows. Show me an autoworker who doesn’t have carpal tunnel from squeezing a trigger on a nut runner 400+ times a shift 5 days a week for years on end and I’ll show you some nice oceanfront property in Kansas. What we do isn’t easy, it only looks like it because we’ve all done it for so long. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hllywd Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, akirby said: When you try to rationalize these wage and compensation demands you just sound like the rich kid in school complaining that your dad lowered your allowance from $50/wk to $40/wk while the kids you’re complaining to only get $10/wk. We don't have to agree, but then again you don't need to be a condescending douche either. How did you become a forum administrator? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 36 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: My arm injury happened installing windows. Show me an autoworker who doesn’t have carpal tunnel from squeezing a trigger on a nut runner 400+ times a shift 5 days a week for years on end and I’ll show you some nice oceanfront property in Kansas. What we do isn’t easy, it only looks like it because we’ve all done it for so long. Until I worked in automotive knew few people with carpal tunnel. In Automotive, many senior workers told me of their surgeries. Saw many others with tell tale scars. The assembly work is intense. The spread between starting wage in automotive and the local grocery or burger joint is decreasing. Sure auto has higher upside potential. How many 20 somethings think that far. 8n years to me races by. 8 years to them, longer than their adult life. Had some training in ergonomics and tried to reduce ergo injuries. In paint tried many sealer brush styles, sealer and spray guns trials. But Final assembly, wow, they were tough. Push pins nut runners, repetitive lifting. A challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 4 hours ago, paintguy said: Wish I had saved a printed copy of the International Master Agreement and The local agreement and letters of understanding for my plant. Took up a good a good chunk of space on my bookshelf. Bigger than some travel bibles. Longer than War and Peace. And the greater the contract language the longer the negotiation took. "work expands with time allocated" And what else does a paid union rep have to do....and I guess same could be said for a corporate labor department? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Captainp4 said: Honestly, how skilled is a production line spot? I can't imagine it taking more than a month to learn almost all of the positions. They're all pretty much automated, aren't they? Unless I'm grossly wrong about how a production line works, I just see people pushing buttons on pretty much automated machines and watching them do the lifting and fastening for them. I don't see how you can be more skilled or more efficient (and therefore worth more) if you're limited by the line speed anyway. Really don't understand how a line worker can be worth so much an hour, not trying to insult anyone here that is one. I need a day in the life of video to see what's so hard about it. As a salary guy, I got to put together a number of jobs and analyze them on the job. Although not an IE per se, in Paint was a jack of all trades. Our cycle times were about 50 seconds to 1min 20 seconds. My job when in IE mode was to find work for 90% of that time. Level of intensity of that amount of work is worth something. Junior workers are less likely to find problems or suggest solutions. The young workers sometimes know 1 job. The 10 to 30 year person may have worked every job in the department. When workers are absent it makes a big difference. Some workers, I had pretreatment and paint kitchen, needed to know how to run chemical tests, safely run and start equipment use varied computer systems. Took about a month to learn and afterward much of my time (chemical operations my main expertise) to show them the fine points. Automation has been implemented very thoroughly in Paint. Specialty operators run the automation. Electricians troubleshoot the robots. Line operators inspect to be sure robotics did the job. Automation is electronic and mechanical equipment and is not infallible. Spent many an hour with skilled trades and operators getting automation back on line. Fun times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: And the greater the contract language the longer the negotiation took. "work expands with time allocated" And what else does a paid union rep have to do....and I guess same could be said for a corporate labor department? Even though I only supervised about 10 hourly, had some long talks with local labor relations. Then the committeeperson, and usually the building chair. More so during election year. Who would imagine that? A few were actually set ups by management when I started, just to be sure I was Ford Tough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, paintguy said: Automation is electronic and mechanical equipment and is not infallible. Spent many an hour with skilled trades and operators getting automation back on line. That is one thing that’s been a theme since I began in the apprenticeship program. Unless you’re in facilities or on a special project, at least 90 percent of our job is troubleshooting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, hllywd said: We don't have to agree, but then again you don't need to be a condescending douche either. How did you become a forum administrator? You speculated as to how the general public would perceive these demands if presented differently and I’m trying to get you to understand exactly how the public perceives them. You don’t see it because you’ve been surrounded by union workers most if not all of your life so you don’t have an outsider’s perspective. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it less true and if you don’t want an honest answer don’t ask the question in a public forum. Edited September 20, 2023 by akirby 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Speaking of which, I would love to see a breakdown of the Big 3 CEOs pay. How much of that obscene number does the company itself pay and how much of the rest of it is from stock options and the like. I’m willing to bet the company itself only pays $5 million or less of that. Here are the numbers from 2022. Nvidia, Lucid top 2022 CEO compensation survey | Automotive News (autonews.com) General Motors CEO, Mary Barra Base salary: $2.1 million Bonus and incentive plan compensation: $6,258,000 Stock option gains: $0 Stock award gains: $24,627,264 Other compensation: $1,121,560 Accumulated pension benefits: $2,160,068 Total compensation: $34,106,824 Ford CEO, Jim Farley Base salary: $1.7 million Bonus and incentive plan compensation: $2,754,000 Stock option gains: $1,869,342 Stock award gains: $10,620,588 Other compensation: $1,396,765 Accumulated pension benefits: $0 Total compensation: $18,340,695 Tesla CEO, Elon Musk Base salary: $0 Bonus and incentive plan compensation: $0 Stock option gains: $0 Stock award gains: $0 Other compensation: $0 Accumulated pension benefits: $0 Total compensation: $0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hllywd Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 2 hours ago, akirby said: You speculated as to how the general public would perceive these demands if presented differently and I’m trying to get you to understand exactly how the public perceives them. You don’t see it because you’ve been surrounded by union workers most if not all of your life so you don’t have an outsider’s perspective. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it less true and if you don’t want an honest answer don’t ask the question in a public forum. Perhaps I could've stated more clearly. And perhaps my sample size isn't large enough. But I based my comments on people around me outside of the auto industry. These people are getting reviews and raises every year and, from what I've heard, their raises have outpaced inflation every year. Seems like assumptions are being made all around. I haven't been surrounded by union workers for most if not all of my life. I hired in later in life and had "real jobs" before hiring in. I disagree with quite a bit of what I see and hear on a daily basis. I don't believe in the strike or the strike tactics. With that being said, and everyone can agree or disagree but that's besides the point... The company asked us to suspend COLA with the provision that as soon as they returned to profitability COLA would be reinstated. Companies returned to profitability by 2010 and here we are 13 years later and it still has not been reinstated. So agree or disagree, that's why the fight. I won't pretend to know how people outside the auto companies would respond but I'd like to think that if their companies promised something and then reneged on the promises that they'd be upset too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted September 20, 2023 Author Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) Las Vegas Review-Journal EDITORIAL: How Green Mandates Are Driving UAW Strike https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-how-green-mandates-are-driving-uaw-strike-2907517/?utm_campaign=widget&utm_medium=latest&utm_source=opinion&utm_term=EDITORIAL%3A How green mandates are driving UAW strike Las Vegas Review-Journal_2023-09-20_Opinion_How Green Mandates Are Driving UAW Strike.pdf Edited September 20, 2023 by ice-capades Additional Content Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 7 hours ago, rperez817 said: Here are the numbers from 2022. How or why is CEO pay relevant? I’m not taking sides, just confused by logic of it all. From my perspective CEOs are employees like everyone else; they just have different job responsibilities. They work for owners of the company (share holders) and have compensation controlled by others. It’s not their own money they are managing unless a CEO happens to also be the owner of the company. Again, I’m not taking sides on fair compensation, just don’t see why pay should be compared at all. Ultimately (somewhat indirectly) isn’t it up to owners, not CEOs? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 11 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That is one thing that’s been a theme since I began in the apprenticeship program. Unless you’re in facilities or on a special project, at least 90 percent of our job is troubleshooting. Yes, and if you were in my department, I'd be there with you, spending my time keeping an LL whatever from getting in your way. Hollering at me doesn't stop you from working. Teamwork. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 24 minutes ago, Rick73 said: How or why is CEO pay relevant? I’m not taking sides, just confused by logic of it all. From my perspective CEOs are employees like everyone else; they just have different job responsibilities. They work for owners of the company (share holders) and have compensation controlled by others. It’s not their own money they are managing unless a CEO happens to also be the owner of the company. Again, I’m not taking sides on fair compensation, just don’t see why pay should be compared at all. Ultimately (somewhat indirectly) isn’t it up to owners, not CEOs? Because the Press or Unions make it...because it is easy to vilify a single person then say the stakeholders. Its a false equivalency. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, paintguy said: Yes, and if you were in my department, I'd be there with you, spending my time keeping an LL whatever from getting in your way. Hollering at me doesn't stop you from working. Teamwork. Salary tends to stay out of the way of trades at my facility. Obviously they get antsy the longer something is down but I haven’t heard too many stories of management outright getting in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 9 hours ago, hllywd said: ...I based my comments on people around me outside of the auto industry. These people are getting reviews and raises every year and, from what I've heard, their raises have outpaced inflation every year... That is only true very recently, as in the last few months. Looking back a decade or more wages in general across the economy have not kept up with the cost of living. It is often referred to as the middle class squeeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: How or why is CEO pay relevant? I’m not taking sides, just confused by logic of it all. Here is the rationale that AFL-CIO provides. Executive Paywatch | AFL-CIO (aflcio.org) The ratio of CEO-to-worker pay is important. A higher pay ratio could be a sign that companies suffer from a winner-take-all philosophy, where executives reap the lion’s share of compensation. A lower pay ratio could indicate the companies that are dedicated to creating high-wage jobs and investing in their employees for the company’s long-term health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 https://www.yahoo.com/news/gm-president-fires-back-flow-100527572.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 https://www.barrons.com/articles/ford-strike-deadline-canadian-auto-workers-21fb4529?siteid=yhoof2 can’t read the article (paywall), but from the headline, sounds like unifor came to an agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, T-dubz said: https://www.barrons.com/articles/ford-strike-deadline-canadian-auto-workers-21fb4529?siteid=yhoof2 can’t read the article (paywall), but from the headline, sounds like unifor came to an agreement. They did. Terms have not been released to the public. Maybe @Oacjay98 has an idea of when the membership is going to see it and can share some details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: They did. Terms have not been released to the public. Maybe @Oacjay98 has an idea of when the membership is going to see it and can share some details. Online zoom ratification is 9am Saturday. This is word of mouth not yet posted. I will share information when I can after ratification. A lot of the membership is furious that it’s online and not a traditional in person ratification meeting. Obvious reason the membership wants to face and hear information in person directly. No heckling or yelling nice and comfortable for the union to do it online. 2020 covid ratification was online and the union said participation was higher so now this is the format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, T-dubz said: https://www.barrons.com/articles/ford-strike-deadline-canadian-auto-workers-21fb4529?siteid=yhoof2 can’t read the article (paywall), but from the headline, sounds like unifor came to an agreement. Yes I stated this earlier but my post got drowned out lol with the ongoing heated debate in here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 20 hours ago, hllywd said: I don't think Fain has done an adequate job educating the public (whose support the union must rely on) on why he's asking for certain things. For example, I don't think we've done an adequate job of explaining to the general public that we aren't randomly pulling 46% out of thin air. You can Google "inflation calculator" and enter $27 (the top pay when COLA ended) and 2007 (the year we lost COLA) and it shows that if we never lost COLA, the wage for production workers would be $39.38 today (+48%). If our wages merely would've kept pace with inflation, as our union forebears intended, we wouldn't be asking for 46% increase now. The general public thinks we're out of our minds asking for 46% "when nobody else gets those kinds of raises". But I'd be willing to bet the general public gets raises every year that pace with inflation. I think we'd be more successful showing the math rather than trying to tie it to CEO compensation. FWIW in this discussion.... Ford and GM workers already make $20 more per hour than Tesla employees - Autoblog The labor cost gap between the Detroit 3 and Tesla is already staggering. Tesla spends about $45 an hour on labor (this cost combines hourly wages and benefits), while Ford, GM, and Stellantis are currently spending about $66 an hour on their labor, according to industry analysts. If the UAW gets its way on pay increases and things like reviving pensions, Wells Fargo has estimated that the Detroit 3's hourly labor costs could more than double to $136 an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 So I suppose Tesla workers are never gonna want a raise and are just gonna stay at the same rate of pay?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 Elon can do no wrong, eh?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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