Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Ford needs to keep Ford Blue highly profitable and stop gutting the crap out of vehicle development.

 

Ford should keep Ford Blue highly profitable in the short term by gutting the crap out of vehicle development while its current products complete their lifecycles. Blue is a placeholder that will be obsolete by the start of the next decade, so Ford's focus nowadays for it should be extremely aggressive cost cutting and complexity reduction. All investment associated with new vehicle and technology development at Ford should be devoted to Model e and Pro business units.

[jpd80]

41 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford should keep Ford Blue highly profitable in the short term by gutting the crap out of vehicle development while its current products complete their lifecycles.

Insane and probably exactly what Ford is doing right before us.

Gutting the crap out of those cash cows will drive away valued customer and the profits needed to pay for all of that $50 billion that Ford is spending, or do you live in a Disneyland where some magic ferry pays for that?

 

42 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 All investment associated with new vehicle and technology development at Ford should be devoted to Model e and Pro business units.

What, $50 billion is still not enough for you?

This is exactly what happens when Ford rushes in like elephants with single focus, they get many fine details wrong and have to go back to square one. Mark my words, the Ford plan will change again in the near future  to a much slower roll out of BEVs, they cannot dismiss the reality of actual buyers wanting to stick with Ford Blue products, ignore that at their peril…

[akirby]

8 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford should keep Ford Blue highly profitable in the short term by gutting the crap out of vehicle development while its current products complete their lifecycles. Blue is a placeholder that will be obsolete by the start of the next decade, so Ford's focus nowadays for it should be extremely aggressive cost cutting and complexity reduction. All investment associated with new vehicle and technology development at Ford should be devoted to Model e and Pro business units.

Just like autonomous vehicles were the future…….

[rmc523]

11 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford should keep Ford Blue highly profitable in the short term by gutting the crap out of vehicle development while its current products complete their lifecycles. Blue is a placeholder that will be obsolete by the start of the next decade, so Ford's focus nowadays for it should be extremely aggressive cost cutting and complexity reduction. All investment associated with new vehicle and technology development at Ford should be devoted to Model e and Pro business units.

 

I highly disagree.

 

What they CAN/should do is instead of gutting it....do what Toyota does and retain the platform, just do a rebody to keep expenses down.  Give each existing product at least one (maybe 2) more full product cycle (redesign + refresh), but stick to the rebody approach so you're not spending a fortune reinventing the wheel.  Limit build configurations to trims and colors, and appearance packages.  (i.e. base/active models come "ok" equipped, XLT gets a decent amount, Limited/Platinum/ST gets all the options).  Share as many components as possible across ICE and BEVs, and put the balance that would've gone to a fully new product toward BEVs.

 

Also, import Zephyr and Evos - they're already shipping over Nautilus, why not bring these sibling products over too?  Edge is a different story because the Chinese Edge isn't an Edge to me...

 

Sell these products alongside the BEV models and let the customer choose, and if/when a segment's BEV model starts outselling the ICE model, then transition away from it.  This allows people to gradually shift to the new BEVs as they get more and more comfortable with the technology, battery tech improves, charging infrastructure improves, etc., instead of forcing it upon everyone.

[T-dubz]

I’m intrigued by EVs, but I’m not switching until charging is fixed. Someone mentioned earlier they’d be happy with 15 min charge times. Not me. 5 min or less is what it will take for me to consider an EV. I do 6 hour round trips multiple times a year. I’m not trying to make it any longer than it has to be. I’m not one who can stop and smell the roses. Sitting at a charging station for 30 minutes would literally drive me insane ?.

[7Mary3]

On 9/8/2023 at 8:50 PM, rperez817 said:

 

Ford should keep Ford Blue highly profitable in the short term by gutting the crap out of vehicle development while its current products complete their lifecycles. Blue is a placeholder that will be obsolete by the start of the next decade, so Ford's focus nowadays for it should be extremely aggressive cost cutting and complexity reduction. All investment associated with new vehicle and technology development at Ford should be devoted to Model e and Pro business units.

 

For better or worse, Ford has to do that.  They have bet the future of the company on BEV's, if they fail Ford fails.  But I don't think BEV's will fail.

 

I wonder about Ford Pro though.  Sure the volume is there, but what about the margins?  There are a number of vehicles in the Ford Pro lineup that I believe gemerate little to no profit. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by 7Mary3

[AGR]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Just like autonomous vehicles were the future…….

 

To be fair to rperez817, he's merely the opposite side of the coin from the rabid anti-EV posters.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I’m intrigued by EVs, but I’m not switching until charging is fixed. Someone mentioned earlier they’d be happy with 15 min charge times. Not me. 5 min or less is what it will take for me to consider an EV. I do 6 hour round trips multiple times a year. I’m not trying to make it any longer than it has to be. I’m not one who can stop and smell the roses. Sitting at a charging station for 30 minutes would literally drive me insane ?.

To be fair, plug your EV in, go inside, use the restroom, maybe buy something from the store, wait in line, and come back out, by then, your car will be fully charged. 

 

EVs can "refuel" by themselves gas powered cars can't. Meaning someone has to pump the gas on a gas car, monitor it to make sure the nozzle doesn't malfunction or anything, wait for it to finish, and then go inside to do whatever they need to do. 

 

If you were to time how long it takes for an EV owner to plug in, immediately walk into the store, buy snacks and use the restroom, it would be comparable to the amount of time a gas powered car owner waits around. Anyone who road trips knows the 5 minute stop off doesn't exist, especially if you're traveling with others, kids more than anything. It takes 5 minutes just to get kids and old people back into the car while they're standing right next to it. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[GearheadGrrrl]

One strategy Ford should pursue is rural markets and applications like heavier trucks where electrification may never be viable. I live in one of those areas and the nearest non big-3 is dealer 70 miles away so Ford already has best position in this market, after the imports drop all their IC vehicles Ford is very well placed to dominate this IC market that will be around for decades.

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, AGR said:

 

To be fair to rperez817, he's merely the opposite side of the coin from the rabid anti-EV posters.

If you look closely, rperez817 is simply boots n all in on Ford’s current stated plan,

I was once like him quoting the leader chapter and verse to others here until one day,

I realised just how many times Ford changes its plans and more to the point why that’s done.

 

Locking yourself into a long term goal is one thing but what is done month to month, year to year

can have a huge bearing on Ford’s profitability and the ability to execute those long term goals.

I don’t consider myself a rabid anti-EV poster, I’m just cautious of believing everything that Ford PR says.

Edited September 9, 2023 by jpd80

[rperez817]

9 hours ago, akirby said:

Just like autonomous vehicles were the future…….

 

They are the future. Development of autonomous vehicle technologies is part of Ford's Model e business unit, which includes Latitude AI. Latitude AI | LinkedIn

[rperez817]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

To be fair, plug your EV in, go inside, use the restroom, maybe buy something from the store, wait in line, and come back out, by then, your car will be fully charged. 

 

EVs can "refuel" by themselves gas powered cars can't. Meaning someone has to pump the gas on a gas car, monitor it to make sure the nozzle doesn't malfunction or anything, wait for it to finish, and then go inside to do whatever they need to do. 

 

Excellent points DeluxeStang. Additionally, the process of connecting an EV to a charger can be automated. Last year, Ford prototyped a robotic EV charger that connects the charging apparatus to the EV's charging port without any need for the driver (or passengers) to exit the vehicle. 

 

Ford's prototype is targeted toward people with disabilities. The technology is expected to expand beyond that group, especially as cars themselves incorporate SAE Level 4 and Level 5 autonomous capabilities.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by rperez817

[rperez817]

6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I wonder about Ford Pro though.  Sure the volume is there, but what about the margins?  There are a number of vehicles in the Ford Pro lineup that I believe gemerate little to no profit. 

 

Good question 7Mary3. Ford Pro's EBIT margin last quarter was 15.3%. Ford Pro business unit has made a concerted effort to increase sales of highly profitable services and software to its customers. Additionally, the fleet vehicle market in general has almost completely moved away from the "dumping" business model. Automakers are able to command higher prices for fleet vehicles from both business and government customers nowadays, helping the automakers' profitability. Q2 2023 Sales Release (ford.com)

 

 

[T-dubz]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

To be fair, plug your EV in, go inside, use the restroom, maybe buy something from the store, wait in line, and come back out, by then, your car will be fully charged. 

 

EVs can "refuel" by themselves gas powered cars can't. Meaning someone has to pump the gas on a gas car, monitor it to make sure the nozzle doesn't malfunction or anything, wait for it to finish, and then go inside to do whatever they need to do. 

 

If you were to time how long it takes for an EV owner to plug in, immediately walk into the store, buy snacks and use the restroom, it would be comparable to the amount of time a gas powered car owner waits around. Anyone who road trips knows the 5 minute stop off doesn't exist, especially if you're traveling with others, kids more than anything. It takes 5 minutes just to get kids and old people back into the car while they're standing right next to it. 

Flip the lever on the gas pump and it will pump your gas hands free too. Go inside and do what you need while it pumps. Still should only take you 5-10 minutes. No where near the 30 min it takes to charge an EV. I can’t recall ever stopping at a gas station for longer than 10 minutes, including gas, bathroom breaks, and getting snacks.

 

I value my time more than others, so I go in to any trip with the mindset that I’m not stopping, and if I do, I’m spending the least amount of time there as possible. Time at my destination or at home with the family will always be more important than wasting time waiting for an EV to charge. Go to the bathroom before we leave. Bring drinks and snacks from home.

 

Also, you are assuming that you can find an open charger. If you drive by any Costco gas station, you will see cars lined up waiting for gas. It’s only a couple of minutes per car at a gas pump, but how long would you be there if they were all EVs? You could be there all day.

Edited September 9, 2023 by T-dubz

[jpd80]

27 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good question 7Mary3. Ford Pro's EBIT margin last quarter was 15.3%. Ford Pro business unit has made a concerted effort to increase sales of highly profitable services and software to its customers. Additionally, the fleet vehicle market in general has almost completely moved away from the "dumping" business model. Automakers are able to command higher prices for fleet vehicles from both business and government customers nowadays, helping the automakers' profitability. Q2 2023 Sales Release (ford.com)

 

And of those 365,000 fleet vehicles sold, how many were BEV?

Ford Pro was a sneaky way for Ford to disconnect the highly profitable ICE commercial sales fleet from the Ford Blue unit.
 

Also,

Ford’s commercial fleet sales have never been about dumping, that assumption came from outsiders not understanding the business.

Telematics are a tough sell for Ford because other systems already exist, Ford is making inroads thanks to integrated system but takes time to convince existing return customers to switch.

[DeluxeStang]

31 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Flip the lever on the gas pump and it will pump your gas hands free too. Go inside and do what you need while it pumps. Still should only take you 5-10 minutes. No where near the 30 min it takes to charge an EV. I can’t recall ever stopping at a gas station for longer than 10 minutes, including gas, bathroom breaks, and getting snacks.

 

I value my time more than others, so I go in to any trip with the mindset that I’m not stopping, and if I do, I’m spending the least amount of time there as possible. Time at my destination or at home with the family will always be more important than wasting time waiting for an EV to charge. Go to the bathroom before we leave. Bring drinks and snacks from home.

 

Also, you are assuming that you can find an open charger. If you drive by any Costco gas station, you will see cars lined up waiting for gas. It’s only a couple of minutes per car at a gas pump, but how long would you be there if they were all EVs? You could be there all day.

Gas pumps have been known to malfunction in the past, hence why I refuse to leave my vehicle unattended while it's filling up. Fair enough, you're a speed runner, but I'm saying for the average person, especially a family or group of friends, those stops are usually taking 15 minutes at least, enough time to recharge. 

 

I'm the kind of person who prefers to get in and out of rest stops as quickly as possible, but most of my friends and family are the "Gotta stretch my legs" type. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

They are the future. Development of autonomous vehicle technologies is part of Ford's Model e business unit, which includes Latitude AI. Latitude AI | LinkedIn

Not level 5 which is what you said was inevitable and the ultimate goal.  Even the experts agree that’s not feasible.

[akirby]

11 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Gas pumps have been known to malfunction in the past, hence why I refuse to leave my vehicle unattended while it's filling up. Fair enough, you're a speed runner, but I'm saying for the average person, especially a family or group of friends, those stops are usually taking 15 minutes at least, enough time to recharge. 

 

I'm the kind of person who prefers to get in and out of rest stops as quickly as possible, but most of my friends and family are the "Gotta stretch my legs" type. 

I wouldn’t mind a 20 minute recharge.  The problem may be finding an available charger immediately.  If they’re all busy then it’s a 40 or 60 minute wait.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

They are the future. Development of autonomous vehicle technologies is part of Ford's Model e business unit, which includes Latitude AI. Latitude AI | LinkedIn

Ford is still smarting from Argo AI going broke, Lattitude AI developments and announcements will remain low key for a few years.

[jpd80]

6 minutes ago, akirby said:

I wouldn’t mind a 20 minute recharge.  The problem may be finding an available charger immediately.  If they’re all busy then it’s a 40 or 60 minute wait.

Also, would be wise to stay with your vehicle and clear the space as soon as charge complete

lest people in the queue behind you get annoyed….I’ve heard this happen to friends of mine.

Similar to people  who fuel up and then goes inside for coffee and fuel..

[jpd80]

11 minutes ago, akirby said:

Not level 5 which is what you said was inevitable and the ultimate goal.  Even the experts agree that’s not feasible.

Am I wrong or has a lot of the consumer side urgency for Autonomous Vehicles died down?

Maybe Covid intervention and work at home showed people alternative ways of thinking

that would not otherwise have been possible…

[spudz64]

8 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Am I wrong or has a lot of the consumer side urgency for Autonomous Vehicles died down?

Maybe Covid intervention and work at home showed people alternative ways of thinking

that would not otherwise have been possible…

It seemed that just as Covid hit, the next big thing was autonomous vehicles, and everyone was jumping on that wagon! Then the movement to electric vehicles came next and it seemed to move to that. I think the short term realities of autonomous vehicles woken everyone up, as it seemed to me it was too much to fast towards them without the tech to catch up. Honestly I’m glad that quieted down!

[ice-capades]

33 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

And of those 365,000 fleet vehicles sold, how many were BEV?

Ford Pro was a sneaky way for Ford to disconnect the highly profitable ICE commercial sales fleet from the Ford Blue unit.
 

Also,

Ford’s commercial fleet sales have never been about dumping, that assumption came from outsiders not understanding the business.

Telematics are a tough sell for Ford because other systems already exist, Ford is making inroads thanks to integrated system but takes time to convince existing return customers to switch.

 

The 365,000 units credited to Ford Pro may include fleet sales but also include commercial sales which would account for the majority. There is no way that 50% of Ford's vehicle sales are fleet! 

 

And yes, Ford's business model for fleet sales has never been based on a "dumping" policy. There are cases where fleet transactions have included "loss leaders" but those are based on specific factors not disclosed by Ford. In addition, there are numerous types of fleet sales transactions with different criteria including pricing... commercial fleet sales and a number of government (State/Municipal/Police, etc.) types which are all under different criteria.  

[jpd80]

29 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

The 365,000 units credited to Ford Pro may include fleet sales but also include commercial sales which would account for the majority. There is no way that 50% of Ford's vehicle sales are fleet! 

 

And yes, Ford's business model for fleet sales has never been based on a "dumping" policy. There are cases where fleet transactions have included "loss leaders" but those are based on specific factors not disclosed by Ford. In addition, there are numerous types of fleet sales transactions with different criteria including pricing... commercial fleet sales and a number of government (State/Municipal/Police, etc.) types which are all under different criteria.  

Correct, I don’t believe that a lot of revenue is coming from BEV Transit or from telematic sales.

All ford has done is disconnect those valuable commercial sales from Ford Blue as a way of

reducing its perceived role as main profit earner for Ford.

[Texasota]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Ford better or worse, Ford has to do that.  They have bet the future of the company on BEV's, if they fail Ford fails.  But I don't think BEV's will fail.

I don't think that is necessarily true for Ford but it might be for GM. Both Ford and GM have invested billions in EVs and building out battery capacity. Fortunately, Ford has a very good hybrid portfolio that can utilize a good chunk of that battery capacity and that is especially so for PHEVs which have good demand and short supply. GM has zero hybrid portfolio to absorb excess battery capacity and they are going to be in big trouble if the Hummer and Silverado EVs under-perform.

 

Farley has recently hinted at the importance of their hybrid sales but he seemed to de-emphasize PHEVs. If BEV sales continue to under-perform, then he will be changing direction in regards to PHEVs also.