rmc523 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Thanks for the link, a few interesting paragraphs reveal what probably happened... First, there's this admission from Bosch that the software was given to VW for test purposes only And then we see this other piece of the puzzle so, someone senior in VW vetoed the adblue system for the diesel and the two engineers championing it were transferred. I think there may be a good case for indicting senior management as being recklessly negligent by eception and misleading conduct. All over $335 a vehicle.......going to cost them a lot more than that now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) All over $335 a vehicle.......going to cost them a lot more than that now... The sily part was: 1) they almost got away with it except for some well meaning investigators fining the car out 2) Had the software patch actually worked, they would hav gotten away with it. What's 11 million cars x $355/carfor the adblue? About $4 billion saved worldwide. I think the regulators should take that into consideration.... Edited September 29, 2015 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 They should be glad they got caught now, as they would've been caught eventually, and the longer this fraud extended, the worse the day of reckoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 And we've reached reductio ad hitlerum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 http://jalopnik.com/that-angry-wise-ass-portland-note-left-on-a-vw-diesel-w-1733700671 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-stock-delisted-dow-jones-sustainability-index/ Dow Jones no longer considers VW a leader in green technology in their field... Price down about $60 a share since the start of this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) Another interesting article... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/business/engine-shortfall-pushed-volkswagen-to-evade-emissions-testing.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0 Volkswagen installed software designed to cheat on emissions tests in 2008 after realizing that a new diesel engine, developed at great expense, could not meet pollution standards in the United States and other countries, people with knowledge of the automaker’s internal inquiry said on Sunday. Rather than stop production of the engine and throw out years of work and investment, managers decided to cheat, the people said, confirming a report in Bild am Sonntag, a German newspaper. They did not want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue. And then there is this.. Volkswagen has said it will unveil a technical solution for the affected vehicles on Wednesday, when the company’s supervisory board is also scheduled to hold an emergency meeting. But experts are skeptical that Volkswagen can find a way to make cars compliant without also hurting fuel economy and performance. Edited October 4, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 It is also clear that whatever VW does to make the cars compliant will either cost lots of money or cause the cars to run less efficiently. Either way, this will be a huge black eye for VW. "I'm sorry, your vehicle has been recalled so we can make the fuel economy worse....." What happens under US law if owners ignore a recall to make emissions compliant? is there any obligation for respective states to force owners to comply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 afaik the cars just won't pass emissions ( = invalid registration = not legal to drive = ticket$ ) - when the tests are updated - the next time they're due (which might get changed to every year even for new) = LOT$ of state income so probable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Many states or areas do not have emissions test or do not have emissions tests for diesels, so non-compliance will not be an issue. Likely nobody except the owner and VW will ever know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Expect the US government to incentivize the installation of the patch. One possible solution: VW agrees to pay $1000 (say) to every affected owner in the US, once they have installed the patch. If the owner does not install the patch by some arbitrary deadline, VW has to pay that money to the US government instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 afaik the cars just won't pass emissions ( = invalid registration = not legal to drive = ticket$ ) - when the tests are updated - the next time they're due (which might get changed to every year even for new) = LOT$ of state income so probable Not everywhere requires emissions tests. Illinois, for instance, only requires emissions tests in the Chicago metro area. Illinois tests are based on EPA regulations, and excludes diesel vehicles (as do other states such as Georgia). What state requires diesel emissions tests? Does California? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 And then, how does VW prove that the patch actually works, since the cars are already compliant when an official test is done? Does this mean additional work by VW to show US regulators that the NOx levels are acceptable under all driving conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 You'd just do a driving test with measurements before and after the patch. You don't need to measure emissions compliance, just make sure there is a drastic reduction in measured emissions before and after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 More fuel to the fire. Probable deaths due to the added pollution. Of course, not directly measurable, like the GM ignition fiasco. http://news.yahoo.com/ap-analysis-vw-evasion-likely-led-dozens-deaths-074550966--finance.html# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Now that is a BS claim. "Scientists and experts"??? How many people died in LA due to their smog problem? How many people died in the 70s and 80s before current emission standards? Bogus sensationalistic journalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Not everywhere requires emissions tests. Illinois, for instance, only requires emissions tests in the Chicago metro area. Illinois tests are based on EPA regulations, and excludes diesel vehicles (as do other states such as Georgia). What state requires diesel emissions tests? Does California? I took a quick glance, and CARB, which many other states use as their standard, doesn't call out Diesel testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 http://jalopnik.com/that-angry-wise-ass-portland-note-left-on-a-vw-diesel-w-1733700671 Probably a Prius owner. Of course, it will take years for their carbon footprint to catch to that Hummer sitting next to them in traffic. And while we're digging up ancient history, the Japanese in WWII committed more atrocities against their enemies than any country in any war, except for the Nazis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I read that article the other day.. what a junk article it is.. this was one of the best lines from it.. "Some people have died or likely died as a result of this," said Carnegie Mellon environmental engineer professor Peter Adams." So which is it? Some have died OR (since we have no direct evidence) some LIKELY did which is then a guess which shows there is no physical proof that deaths occured. Sounds like a Tom Brady article.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-emissions-investigation-zeroes-two-081000157.html Sounds like VW is going to pass the blame on to two engineers where we all know it was coming from much higher up then that. Company investigation focuses on two men elevated after Winterkorn was made CEO The two men, Ulrich Hackenberg, Audi’s chief engineer, and Wolfgang Hatz, developer of Porsche’s winning Le Mans racing engines, were among the engineers suspended in the investigation of the emissions cheating scandal that sank the company’s market value by 43% since Sept. 18 and triggered a world-wide recall to refit the engines to meet clear-air standards, these people said. The details haven’t been made public, but Volkswagen’s investigation is focused on Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz, Mr. Winterkorn’s top aides during his tenure at Audi, as well as Heinz-Jakob Neusser, head of development at the VW brand, people familiar with the matter said. Edited October 5, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldo Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I took a quick glance, and CARB, which many other states use as their standard, doesn't call out Diesel testing. Diesel vehicles less than 14,000 lbs GVWR are required to be smog tested every 2 years in CAs regardless of when produced. Gasoline cars less than 6 years or ZEV/PZEV are emissions tested exempt. A few rural counties/zip codes in CA don't require smog tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Another interesting article from unnamed sources "familiar with the plans". http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-05/vw-said-to-consider-diesel-fixes-ranging-from-upgrade-to-new-car?cmpid=yhoo Swapping out the affected models for new ones is the most extreme in a range of options the carmaker is discussing ahead of talks with regulators around the world, including an Oct. 7 deadline to present a plan in Germany, people familiar with the plans said. Other possibilities include installing bigger catalytic converters to store and neutralize harmful emissions, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the plans aren’t final. The appropriate fix will also be different from model to model, according to one of the people familiar with Volkswagen’s plans. The larger 2-liter engines affected already come with a tank of so-called AdBlue solution to neutralize harmful nitrogen oxides. Without the software, the customer would simply need to refill the tank more frequently. The smaller engines, which have systems that collect nitrogen oxides in the car, are potentially more complicated, because they can’t be retrofitted, the person said. Once the exhaust traps are full, the residue is burnt off inside the engine, affecting fuel economy. Depending upon what regulators demand, Volkswagen may have to install larger catalytic converters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Dyno runs showing power loss between the two softwares (emission and non emission compliant). http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html Without: the Jetta produced peak output of 138.5 horsepower and 260 lb/ft of torque. That's on par with the manufacturer's announced performance figures of 140 horsepower and 240 lb/ft of torque. With: TFL then ran the test again. This time, the dyno only the turned the Jetta's front wheels. This tricks the car into believing that it is being emissions tested — activating all of the car's pollution controls. In this setting, the Jetta produced a peak output 136.5 hp and 228.4 lb/ft of torque. With the full emissions controls on, the Jetta lost 2 horsepower and 32 lb/ft of torque at full throttle. However, TFL observed that the biggest difference in power is at the lower end of the power curve, where the engine operates during acceleration. There, the TDI engine with the full pollution controls was down as much as 15 horsepower. Edited October 6, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 If The Fast Lane Car's test are accurate, then the power loss is bad news for TDI enthusiasts. GASP! So, you're telling me there's a *reason* why VW cheated on the emissions tests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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