silvrsvt Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 9:44 AM, novanglus said: Obviously the next gen tech in the Roadster, S, and X will be out late next year, as Tesla starts selling $200-250k Roadsters and $150k Plaid S and Plaid X models, again, according to Musk. So, it will be hard to classify them as ancient, as they’ll be carrying the most advanced tech and performance available. but yet they still break down...Tesla has a long way to go https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-towed-nurburgring-porsche-taycan-2019-9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyFord Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 10 hours ago, silvrsvt said: but yet they still break down...Tesla has a long way to go https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-towed-nurburgring-porsche-taycan-2019-9 That one that broke down is not a production car though right? I think that is what the article said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, barney9014 said: That one that broke down is not a production car though right? I think that is what the article said. It was Tesla trying to break the Ring record that the Taycan set with a stripped out Plaid model. There also been powertrain failures with different Tesla models (motors) Seems like Tesla doesn't do as much QC testing as other auto manufactures do and I think thats going to become more apparent as more BEVs come to market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I'm really interested to see the difference between Teslas and the Mach-E and other BEVs from major mfrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, akirby said: I'm really interested to see the difference between Teslas and the Mach-E and other BEVs from major mfrs. Until the incumbent automakers no longer rely on the sale of ICE vehicles to prop up their operations, Tesla will continue to be the leader in the U.S. BEV market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Until the incumbent automakers no longer rely on the sale of ICE vehicles to prop up their operations, Tesla will continue to be the leader in the U.S. BEV market. But here's the thing. The sale of those ICE vehicles is why Ford makes a profit and is able to invest in BEV technology and production in a manner other than a ponzi scheme. No one, including Tesla, is yet making an actual sustained profit from BEV automobiles. As technology continues to improve, bringing BEV prices down and capabilities up that will change for sure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Until the incumbent automakers no longer rely on the sale of ICE vehicles to prop up their operations, Tesla will continue to be the leader in the U.S. BEV market. Things that Ford, GM and VW (among others) do better than Tesla: 1 - make a profit 2 - volume manufacturing 3 - make a profit 4 - platform and technology sharing 5 - make a profit 6 - huge dealer networks for sales, service and maintenance 7 - make a profit I'll say it again - the only reason the full line automakers haven't jumped in on BEVs is because THEY WEREN'T PROFITABLE! We've reached the tipping point where 200-300 mile range BEVs can be sold at enough volume to at least break even, especially when Ford and VW and Rivian are sharing costs. Mark my words - Tesla will be absorbed by another automaker within 5 years. They have no long term viability. Market share and sales volume mean nothing when you can't at least break even. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I can see Tesla (and really Rivian as well) becoming a Powertrain/charging provider. I suppose Ford has aligned BEV wise with VW (for some models), but I would have liked to seen a JV like they’ve done with GM on transmissions, perhaps even to include shared manufacturing. GM+Ford buying/building batteries would have significant leverage for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, akirby said: Things that Ford, GM and VW (among others) do better than Tesla: 1 - make a profit 2 - volume manufacturing 3 - make a profit 4 - platform and technology sharing 5 - make a profit 6 - huge dealer networks for sales, service and maintenance 7 - make a profit I'll say it again - the only reason the full line automakers haven't jumped in on BEVs is because THEY WEREN'T PROFITABLE! We've reached the tipping point where 200-300 mile range BEVs can be sold at enough volume to at least break even, especially when Ford and VW and Rivian are sharing costs. Mark my words - Tesla will be absorbed by another automaker within 5 years. They have no long term viability. Market share and sales volume mean nothing when you can't at least break even. Maybe not 5 years but sure... there isn't a lot of plausible scenarios where Tesla is still competing with retail sales of BEV when everyone are selling full line of BEV. I mean just look at how old the Model S is now and Tesla has no plans to update it. They simply do not have the money and the resources to do all the things they need to sustain this business for the long run. The capital market will run out of patience eventually - if you eliminate the short term fluctuation (the noise) from Tesla stock price, it has been flat since 2015. When the institutional investors starts to bail, it will be a train wreck. Stock chart: https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+stock&oq=tesla+stock&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5480j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Edited October 2, 2019 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) On 10/2/2019 at 3:38 PM, bzcat said: Maybe not 5 years but sure... there isn't a lot of plausible scenarios where Tesla is still competing with retail sales of BEV when everyone are selling full line of BEV. I mean just look at how old the Model S is now and Tesla has no plans to update it. They simply do not have the money and the resources to do all the things they need to sustain this business for the long run. The capital market will run out of patience eventually - if you eliminate the short term fluctuation (the noise) from Tesla stock price, it has been flat since 2015. When the institutional investors starts to bail, it will be a train wreck. Stock chart: https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+stock&oq=tesla+stock&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5480j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 I think it has already been stated that they have a plan to update it. The plaid power train requires mods to the chassis. Unless you think the design conscious people at Tesla are going to send out Plaid models with plastic fender flares, the body is getting updated to handle the new pack and the dual rear motors. Even Elon stated that the rear facing seats in the Plaid S will have much more room. You can’t get much more room unless it gets a redesign. And, let me tell you, I drive a Model 3 Performance and it is an absolutely stellar vehicle. Mine came to me in perfect condition, I know others haven’t been so lucky. But nothing is close to a Model 3 P right now for normal humans. It is the Taurus SHO, but x 10. Can’t compete on luxury but stomps everyone in performance. Ford has a very hard target to hit. The only people who managed to hit it so far are at Porsche, and they charge over $100,000 more than the 3 P for the effort. Edited October 3, 2019 by novanglus Typos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 10/2/2019 at 3:38 PM, bzcat said: I mean just look at how old the Model S is now and Tesla has no plans to update it. Model S was far ahead of its time when it was introduced in 2012. Tesla has continuously improved it since then. I have a 2018 Model S 75D that I bought used a couple months ago. It just got the 10.0 software update OTA. It feels like a new car. Actually, better than a new car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Model S was far ahead of its time when it was introduced in 2012. Tesla has continuously improved it since then. I have a 2018 Model S 75D that I bought used a couple months ago. It just got the 10.0 software update OTA. It feels like a new car. Actually, better than a new car. So software updates qualify as a vehicle refresh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 not sold on tesla at all...or the OTA which shouldn't be regarded as "refreshes" just over the air fixes for fundamental flaws that shouldn't have seen the light of day from the get go....and Im not quite sure it is, but Ive yet to meet a tesla owner that doesn't exude a certain "put themselves on a pedestal" attitude.....the cars GOOD, nothing really exceptional about it ( cue 0 -60 numbers ...which means nothing in day to day usefulness barring ones 16 year old son that steals the keys and wants to show off to his mates on the way to McDonalds drive through for a two for one special ) Will give them credit though, how the hell they haven't folded is beyond me...but that's another dis-cussion. I have high hopes for the Mach E, hopefully everyone bringing these types of vehicles to market now, have witnessed how NOT to do things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, akirby said: So software updates qualify as a vehicle refresh? No sir. Tesla doesn't do "refreshes" a few years after new model introduction like incumbent automakers do. Instead Tesla uses an "agile" approach, making numerous aesthetic, mechanical, and software updates as well as changes to standard and optional features throughout the vehicle's lifecycle. Here is an example for Model S (2012-mid 2017). https://sites.google.com/site/teslamotorsclubwiki/home/model-s/options-by-year Edited October 4, 2019 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) On 10/2/2019 at 6:20 AM, akirby said: Things that Ford, GM and VW (among others) do better than Tesla: 1 - make a profit 2 - volume manufacturing 3 - make a profit 4 - platform and technology sharing 5 - make a profit 6 - huge dealer networks for sales, service and maintenance 7 - make a profit I'll say it again - the only reason the full line automakers haven't jumped in on BEVs is because THEY WEREN'T PROFITABLE! We've reached the tipping point where 200-300 mile range BEVs can be sold at enough volume to at least break even, especially when Ford and VW and Rivian are sharing costs. Mark my words - Tesla will be absorbed by another automaker within 5 years. They have no long term viability. Market share and sales volume mean nothing when you can't at least break even. I disagree... I think Tesla will just morph into a fuel supply service. Think the way Exxon-Mobile provide fuel to cars now. Tesla does have a strong set of patents and experience in a charging network. If the industry adopts Tesla’s convection as the standard... Edited October 4, 2019 by blazerdude20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: No sir. Tesla doesn't do "refreshes" a few years after new model introduction like incumbent automakers do. Instead Tesla uses an "agile" approach, making numerous aesthetic, mechanical, and software updates as well as changes to standard and optional features throughout the vehicle's lifecycle. Here is an example for Model S (2012-mid 2017). https://sites.google.com/site/teslamotorsclubwiki/home/model-s/options-by-year Not impressed-thats the same as Ford pushing out updates to Sync3 and adding/dropping features through its product life Plus they do sheetmetal and interior updates-which Tesla has done one of (on the S) in 7 years with a new bumper cover...hardly ground breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: thats the same as Ford pushing out updates to Sync3 and adding/dropping features through its product life I have a Ford with Sync 3 as well as a Tesla. Both vehicles have OTA capabilities for their softwares. But the similarity ends there. Tesla's OTA software updates add new features to the operation of the car itself, in addition to the infotainment system. Such as Smart Summon which was added in the recent 10.0 update. Or that enhance the car's performance. Such as the update that Tesla applied early in the Model 3's lifecycle that improved braking performance. Basically, Tesla makes cars that owners already have better as they age. No other major automaker even comes close to this. By contrast, Sync 3 updates for the most part only fix defects or address compatibility issues for the infotainment system. Updates that add new features are rare. Same deal with infotainment systems from other incumbent automakers like Toyota Entune 3.0 and FCA UConnect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 8 hours ago, blazerdude20 said: I disagree... I think Tesla will just morph into a fuel supply service. Think the way Exxon-Mobile provide fuel to cars now. Tesla does have a strong set of patents and experience in a charging network. If the industry adopts Tesla’s convection as the standard... I could see that. Either way I don't think they'll be building their own cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 16 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Tesla's OTA software updates add new features to the operation of the car itself, in addition to the infotainment system. Such as Smart Summon which was added in the recent 10.0 update. Or that enhance the car's performance. Such as the update that Tesla applied early in the Model 3's lifecycle that improved braking performance. Basically, Tesla makes cars that owners already have better as they age. No other major automaker even comes close to this. But that's only possible in a BEV where the computer controls those functions. It also means they under delivered initially by leaving out those functions. It's like Ford advertising 800 lb/ft of torque then upping it to 900 with a software change. Why didn't they just do 900 from the get go (the answer is marketing but you get the point). I expect all BEVs to do this. That still doesn't count as a refresh where you change the look and feel of the vehicle periodically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Ford did actually do that with the 2011 6.7L PowerStroke. Originally came out with 3xxHP/725 ft-lbs, upgraded to 400HP/800 ft-lbs later with a flash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 26 minutes ago, fordmantpw said: Ford did actually do that with the 2011 6.7L PowerStroke. Originally came out with 3xxHP/725 ft-lbs, upgraded to 400HP/800 ft-lbs later with a flash. I know that's what I was referencing I just couldn't remember the exact numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolScoop Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) On 9/14/2019 at 10:08 PM, akirby said: You (and anyone else with an almost 10 yr old ford hybrid) should read this: https://www.fordfusionforum.com/topic/19361-my-instructions-on-restoring-the-hybrid-ev-function-on-the-ford-fusion-hybrid-approaching-the-89-years-mark/ My daughter drives our 2010 Fusion Hybrid and it became unsafe for her to drive due to lack of power and severe hesitation when accelerating from a stop. Plus the gas mileage was terrible. Then I remembered this recomendation that you sent me. Did the procedure yesterday and wow... it performs like it did when new again!!! Thanks to your timely info I no longer have to worry about her getting in trouble at an intersection or interstate on-ramp! The gas mileage is back up too... THANK YOU Edited June 7, 2020 by CoolScoop 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Cyber orange confirmed for the mach e gt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 2 hours ago, rmc523 said: Tesla has a devoted, loyal base like Ford does with the F-Series. Certainly the MachE looks competitive, and there is room in the segment for many players, but Tesla is top dog. The Model Y is very impressive. I just don't like the minimalist interior dominated by the huge tablet. I watched the Joe Raiti review of the Taycan 4S, and while nice the Model S is still better IMO. The range on the Porsche is lacking too. The Model S is still top dog. I get it that the MachE completes with the Model Y. I like the interior of the Ford better and their dealer network, but dang that Model Y is nice. Hopefully Ford can carve out a decent market share of the electric market with this vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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