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I sure see a ton of new sedans with dealer tags on them so apparently there are some people who still want cars.  Unfortunately, they are all foreign makes. I’m not trying to restart the debate about Ford stopping sedan production.  It’s just an observation that some people still want sedans. 

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15 minutes ago, tbone said:

I sure see a ton of new sedans with dealer tags on them so apparently there are some people who still want cars.  Unfortunately, they are all foreign makes. I’m not trying to restart the debate about Ford stopping sedan production.  It’s just an observation that some people still want sedans. 


Nobody ever said sedans aren’t selling, just that the market is shrinking even for Camcord.  But the biggest problem for sedans is they can’t be customized the same way trucks and utilities are customized.  Look at Bronco Sport, Maverick, F series, Ranger.  Special editions.  Off road packages.  Camping accessories.  Towing features.  All of that adds up to more profit  and less direct competition and that equals more profit.
 

What is there to differentiate one sedan from another?  Not much.  That’s why they’re mostly commoditized with low profit margins.

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Maybe ford feels they can still make a profit off of luxury sedans? Lincoln wouldn’t be selling any 20k sedans, that’s for sure.

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57 minutes ago, tbone said:

I sure see a ton of new sedans with dealer tags on them so apparently there are some people who still want cars.  Unfortunately, they are all foreign makes. I’m not trying to restart the debate about Ford stopping sedan production.  It’s just an observation that some people still want sedans. 

 

Yes sir tbone, sedans still comprise a significant market segment in the U.S. even though overall volume has dropped as several companies discontinued sedan models. The sedans that remain are all very good or excellent products. Survival of the fittest for sure. Foreign companies dominate in this market segment, but a few American designed sedans made by American companies still exist for 2021 & 2022 model years. Tesla Model S, Tesla Model 3, Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CT4, and Cadillac CT5.

 

Ford may resurrect sedans in the U.S. market, both for Ford and Lincoln brands, as its lineup becomes all electric by the end of the decade. BEV optimized platforms such as the skateboard offer automakers flexibility to build different body types and form factors with lower costs and simplified manufacturing processes compared to ICE powered vehicles.

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The only thing stopping this from being sold here is the possible blow back for building a Lincoln in China and selling it here. Is the possible perception damage worth 15K-30K in additional sales?

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14 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

The only thing stopping this from being sold here is the possible blow back for building a Lincoln in China and selling it here. Is the possible perception damage worth 15K-30K in additional sales?

 

I don't see it as a problem that it once was...maybe some Navigator and Aviator buyers will wrinkle their noses at a Chinese built Lincoln sedan, but that's not the demographic that would be interested in a sedan anyway. I say, send the vehicle to Flat Rock as "incomplete" i.e. no drive train, install a US built drive train and finish it here.

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1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

Maybe ford feels they can still make a profit off of luxury sedans? Lincoln wouldn’t be selling any 20k sedans, that’s for sure.


Absolutely.  The problem is the volume would be relatively low and you’d have to eliminate some other upcoming BEV to get the resources and that’s not happening.

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51 minutes ago, akirby said:


Absolutely.  The problem is the volume would be relatively low and you’d have to eliminate some other upcoming BEV to get the resources and that’s not happening.

Actually, Lincoln could just import the vehicle from China. It is mainly a vehicle for the Chinese market anyway (where sedans still sell quite well), so that is where the volume will be to make the product financially feasible. It doesn't have to sell a lot here, but it would give Lincoln another product that diehard North American luxury sedan buyers would appreciate. Assuming, of course, that Lincoln customers would be willing to buy a vehicle made by FMC in China and that it is an excellent product.

Edited by Gurgeh

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55 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Actually, Lincoln could just import the vehicle from China. It is mainly a vehicle for the Chinese market anyway (where sedans still sell quite well), so that is where the volume will be to make the product financially feasible. It doesn't have to sell a lot here, but it would give Lincoln another product that diehard North American luxury sedan buyers would appreciate. Assuming, of course, that Lincoln customers would be willing to buy a vehicle made by FMC in China and that it is an excellent product.


Agreed but you’d think if it was feasible they would already be doing it with Continental.

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You know... Flat Rock does need another product and we've always known the paint shop is too small for tall utilities.

 

And if they do the Zephyr there, they might as well do the Fusion. Seems highly unlikely but Ford changes its mind about future products 6 times before lunch everyday.

 

 

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With it seemingly not being a BEV, I don't see it getting any US factory space.  But could see them try to import it from China - that's the only way I see it working out.

 

Lincoln has done relatively well to maintain sales numbers throughout the dropping of sedans via increase crossover sales, but there's no doubt dropping sedans certainly took a chunk of sales out.  I think there's room for one large midsize offering if costs can be spread over here and China.

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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

You know... Flat Rock does need another product and we've always known the paint shop is too small for tall utilities.

 

And if they do the Zephyr there, they might as well do the Fusion. Seems highly unlikely but Ford changes its mind about future products 6 times before lunch everyday


They could change their mind but they had a reason for killing Continental.

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6 hours ago, akirby said:


Agreed but you’d think if it was feasible they would already be doing it with Continental.

 

Actually not since they dropped Continental in China as well:

Ford to end production of iconic Lincoln Continental (freep.com)

Quote

"It will end for both China and the U.S. at the end of the year," Angie Kozleski, Lincoln spokeswoman, told the Free Press.

 

If Lincoln imported 15-20K Zephyrs from China, it wouldn't cost them much at all.

Edited by AGR

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I did t realize it was dropped in China too.

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16 hours ago, bzcat said:

You know... Flat Rock does need another product and we've always known the paint shop is too small for tall utilities.

 

And if they do the Zephyr there, they might as well do the Fusion. Seems highly unlikely but Ford changes its mind about future products 6 times before lunch everyday.

 

 

Flat Rock is supposed to get new product beyond the Mustang around CY 2023.

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14 hours ago, rmc523 said:

With it seemingly not being a BEV, I don't see it getting any US factory space.  But could see them try to import it from China - that's the only way I see it working out.

 

Lincoln has done relatively well to maintain sales numbers throughout the dropping of sedans via increase crossover sales, but there's no doubt dropping sedans certainly took a chunk of sales out.  I think there's room for one large midsize offering if costs can be spread over here and China.

 

18 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Actually, Lincoln could just import the vehicle from China. It is mainly a vehicle for the Chinese market anyway (where sedans still sell quite well), so that is where the volume will be to make the product financially feasible. It doesn't have to sell a lot here, but it would give Lincoln another product that diehard North American luxury sedan buyers would appreciate. Assuming, of course, that Lincoln customers would be willing to buy a vehicle made by FMC in China and that it is an excellent product.

I never considered buying a non-Big 3 vehicle, but I would buy a Japanese made Lexus, a German made Benz or a korean made Genises before I would buy a Lincoln made in communist China especially when the sent the corona virus here and Ford has excess capacity in the US to build it here. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

 

I never considered buying a non-Big 3 vehicle, but I would buy a Japanese made Lexus, a German made Benz or a korean made Genises before I would buy a Lincoln made in communist China especially when the sent the corona virus here and Ford has excess capacity in the US to build it here. 

 

If Ford wants to sell vehicles to the federal government, they will have to be built here. Remember seeing lots of Fusions and Escapes with U.S. government tags. U.S. buys up to 700,000 vehicles/year. And anyone who does business with feds will have to meet the made in US. criteria. 

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

 

If Ford wants to sell vehicles to the federal government, they will have to be built here. Remember seeing lots of Fusions and Escapes with U.S. government tags. U.S. buys up to 700,000 vehicles/year. And anyone who does business with feds will have to meet the made in US. criteria. 


The U.S. government is not going to be buying Lincolns. Also the US government can't even buy vehicles with Leather seats without insane and crazy approvals for it to happen. 

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4 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

If Ford wants to sell vehicles to the federal government, they will have to be built here. Remember seeing lots of Fusions and Escapes with U.S. government tags. U.S. buys up to 700,000 vehicles/year. And anyone who does business with feds will have to meet the made in US. criteria. 

 

That's not true. Federal Govt bought lots of Crown Vic and Impala made in Canada and is currently buying lots of Ram pickup and Promaster made in Mexico.

 

You are thinking of Buy-America provision which only applies to State and local procurement funded by the Federal Govt. This provision was designed to protect niche US producers of specialty equipment (not just vehicles) from foreign competition. This is the reason why North America transit buses and fire trucks for example are completely different than the rest of the world. The Federal Govt doesn't subject itself to this provision when it needs to procure vehicles - it gets what it needs from anywhere.

 

 

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On 9/2/2021 at 8:11 PM, rmc523 said:

With it seemingly not being a BEV, I don't see it getting any US factory space.  But could see them try to import it from China - that's the only way I see it working out.

 

Lincoln has done relatively well to maintain sales numbers throughout the dropping of sedans via increase crossover sales, but there's no doubt dropping sedans certainly took a chunk of sales out.  I think there's room for one large midsize offering if costs can be spread over here and China.

 

If Flat Rock is to survive, then it makes sense to add the Mustang Sport Sedan there along with differentiated Zephyr. And the Mustang Mach E is a crossover, not a sport sedan. So Mustang lineup would be Sport coupe, sport sedan, and cuv. Kind of like MB and BMW. Lincoln version would be electric only.

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4 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

If Flat Rock is to survive, then it makes sense to add the Mustang Sport Sedan there along with differentiated Zephyr. And the Mustang Mach E is a crossover, not a sport sedan. So Mustang lineup would be Sport coupe, sport sedan, and cuv. Kind of like MB and BMW. Lincoln version would be electric only.

 

I agree with this line of thinking, but don't see investment in any sort of new ICE model coming in the US, at least in the segments we're discussing.  A BEV Mustang sport sedan and Lincoln counterpart?  Sure.  I'd make them liftbacks as well.

 

If S650 is truly just improved S550, that likely means it can't support a sedan (or at least that's been the line for a long time now), the loss of CD6 as a base seemingly eliminated that.

 

The problem with what you're thinking is talking about putting a RWD sedan (Mustang sedan), alongside a new FWD sedan in Zephyr, so aside from "they're sedans", there's no other commonality there.  I guess they did make Conti work there, but shrug....

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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

I agree with this line of thinking, but don't see investment in any sort of new ICE model coming in the US, at least in the segments we're discussing.  A BEV Mustang sport sedan and Lincoln counterpart?  Sure.  I'd make them liftbacks as well.

 

If S650 is truly just improved S550, that likely means it can't support a sedan (or at least that's been the line for a long time now), the loss of CD6 as a base seemingly eliminated that.

 

The problem with what you're thinking is talking about putting a RWD sedan (Mustang sedan), alongside a new FWD sedan in Zephyr, so aside from "they're sedans", there's no other commonality there.  I guess they did make Conti work there, but shrug....

 

Base the Zephyr off the Mustang sport sedan. Ford has learned how to differentiate Lincoln from Ford lately. A lift back is great idea. 

 

Investing ever more money in China is getting very risky considering U.S. China deteriorating relations. Use Flat Rock. 

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I see zero reason to keep Lincoln around, especially with the coming BEV transition. Lincoln will never again be an upper echelon brand, and there is no reason a high end Ford cannot compete in the market Lincoln now competes.

 

My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition. A similar Lincoln BEV would be redundant.  

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