UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[Deanh]

7 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

And employees have the right to organize into labor unions, engage in collective bargaining, and take collective action such as strikes.

and Employers have the right to fire....big circle jerk...and agin...who works for who? Compromise NOT bullying and threats should be modus operatum....

[tbone]

6 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

The situations are completely different, so there's no question to answer.

My God, your responses are tiresome.  It’s a simple example for discussion.  Either answer the question or don’t participate at all. 

[jpd80]

Ford and the UAW are making significant progress, there’s still more than a few details to work out.

The fact that Ford was willing to listen and make a good proposal is to their credit and shows that

in some areas the UAW is listening and most likely take a lot less than what was said in public.

 

So it looks like negotiations will not drag out for weeks and weeks….

Edited September 29, 2023 by jpd80

[twintornados]

11 hours ago, Deanh said:

and Employers have the right to fire....big circle jerk...and agin...who works for who? Compromise NOT bullying and threats should be modus operatum....

And that is the biggest fallacy of being a member of a union - people mistakenly think you cannot get fired if you are in a union shop. That is incorrect. All it means is that when an employee faces a termination level event, the employer must follow the termination procedures laid out in the CBA that they agreed to with the union. 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

And that is the biggest fallacy of being a member of a union - people mistakenly think you cannot get fired if you are in a union shop. That is incorrect. All it means is that when an employee faces a termination level event, the employer must follow the termination procedures laid out in the CBA that they agreed to with the union. 

 

More often than not it is harder to get rid of them because of that...it makes the juice not worth the squeeze 

[jasonj80]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

And that is the biggest fallacy of being a member of a union - people mistakenly think you cannot get fired if you are in a union shop. That is incorrect. All it means is that when an employee faces a termination level event, the employer must follow the termination procedures laid out in the CBA that they agreed to with the union. 

Is it possible; yes, can it be done in even a remotely reasonable way; No, the hours you need to invest; performance improvement plans, rehabilitation plans, time off schedule etc. it has to be followed perfect or you start over.  Should there be some protections absolutely but what is in contracts now is insane. Its easer to stick people in a corner or desk than go though the process. 

Been traveling a lot the past 2 weeks and the feeling I'm getting is disastrous for this strike long term. 1/2 the people are in the companies should give them their demands for fair compensation; they work hard and deserve that you can't live on $20 a hour(I know that's not the pay most get but some some that is the perception) . F them and I'm not buying their products  to send a message they should treat their employees better. The other half are F those workers they live on another planet striking for a 32 hours a week, full pension, 40% raise is BS they shouldn't make double of Teachers, Nurses and Public Safely workers. They put bolts on. I'm not buying their product let them join the unemployment line and see what a real job is like. 

In the end - no one buys the product and everyone is out of a job. Worse politicians are getting involved which will only enrage people to not buy products because they hate X so X = company/employee and I'm not supporting that. 

I have a very bad feeling that the effects from this will be felt for decades and perception of both the workers and the companies which will result in lost buyers from both sides. I was already seeing some early indications this is the beginning of another lost decade in Michigan where companies will invest elsewhere because of political and recruitment issues in the State, add labor unrest and you can be sure those companies will invest elsewhere. Real or Not. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by jasonj80

[silvrsvt]

9 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

I have a very bad feeling that the effects from this will be felt for decades and perception of both the workers and the companies which will result in lost buyers from both sides. I was already seeing some early indications this is the beginning of another lost decade in Michigan where companies will invest elsewhere because of political and recruitment issues in the State, add labor unrest and you can be sure those companies will invest elsewhere. Real or Not. 

 

Your talking about a bigger issue across the whole country-Gen X and millennials are getting older and Gen Z has some of the lowest job engagement of any generation in the past 50 years. Gen Z is also one of the smallest generations also. There is going to be labor issues for the foreseeable future-either with filling positions (already happening) or unions being emboldened by this thinking it will give them more power. 

[akirby]

45 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Is it possible; yes, can it be done in even a remotely reasonable way; No, the hours you need to invest; performance improvement plans, rehabilitation plans, time off schedule etc. it has to be followed perfect or you start over.  Should there be some protections absolutely but what is in contracts now is insane. Its easer to stick people in a corner or desk than go though the process. 

Been traveling a lot the past 2 weeks and the feeling I'm getting is disastrous for this strike long term. 1/2 the people are in the companies should give them their demands for fair compensation; they work hard and deserve that you can't live on $20 a hour(I know that's not the pay most get but some some that is the perception) . F them and I'm not buying their products  to send a message they should treat their employees better. The other half are F those workers they live on another planet striking for a 32 hours a week, full pension, 40% raise is BS they shouldn't make double of Teachers, Nurses and Public Safely workers. They put bolts on. I'm not buying their product let them join the unemployment line and see what a real job is like. 

In the end - no one buys the product and everyone is out of a job. Worse politicians are getting involved which will only enrage people to not buy products because they hate X so X = company/employee and I'm not supporting that. 

I have a very bad feeling that the effects from this will be felt for decades and perception of both the workers and the companies which will result in lost buyers from both sides. I was already seeing some early indications this is the beginning of another lost decade in Michigan where companies will invest elsewhere because of political and recruitment issues in the State, add labor unrest and you can be sure those companies will invest elsewhere. Real or Not. 

I understand why the workers want more - who doesn’t?  It’s the new union leadership who are being stupid and looking for short term gains that will do nothing but cost jobs in the future - potentially a LOT of jobs and not just UAW.  
 

A smart union would understand that in order for the companies to succeed and keep existing jobs and create new ones they have to be competitive on cost.  Not cheaper than Tesla or Toyota, just competitive.  That’s what happened in 2008 with tiered wages and other concessions and the companies survived and even thrived.  It allowed them to survive downturns and invest in new technology and plants to compete with Tesla.

 

If the union kept their labor costs more competitive then Ford would gladly expand union production here in the US.  Grandfather the older employees on wages and benefits, offer early retirement and bring in new ones at compensation more in line with Toyota and Tesla.  Contrary to popular belief, they are not joining the UAW nor will their compensation be raised more than the cost of living.

 

I’ve been trying to educate the employees and get them to understand this is a no win situation for them and their union leaders are marching them off a cliff but it’s hard to see that when you’ve grown up in that culture and believe what the union says.

 

Sounds like Unifor gets it.

[fuzzymoomoo]

I still don’t understand the fascination with a pension

Edited September 29, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[silvrsvt]

23 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I still don’t understand the fascination with a pension

 

Because Social Security doesn't pay enough?

[Gurgeh]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

More often than not it is harder to get rid of them because of that...it makes the juice not worth the squeeze 

It's like that in the federal workforce as well. Non-performers, and there are a lot of them, can theoretically get fired, but the process takes too long and is insanely complicated. So the poor workers tend to get shunted into jobs that don't do much or "promoted" into new jobs where they become someone else's problem. Hard working government workers, and there are a good number of them, then just find more and more work piled on their shoulders until they collapse.

 

As a federal manager (in the Treasury Department) I actually initiated the firing process on a University of Virginia PhD economist who spent his entire day playing solitaire on the computer. After about a year of working laboriously through the firing process we finally convinced him to just retire. It might have taken a second year to bring the process to its conclusion.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Gurgeh

[fuzzymoomoo]

28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Because Social Security doesn't pay enough?

Why would I leave my retirement income in the hands of a company (or in the case of social security, the government) when I can have a 401k and have much greater control over it? It the whole pension concept doesn’t make sense to me. 

[Bob Rosadini]

2 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Is it possible; yes, can it be done in even a remotely reasonable way; No, the hours you need to invest; performance improvement plans, rehabilitation plans, time off schedule etc. it has to be followed perfect or you start over.  Should there be some protections absolutely but what is in contracts now is insane. Its easer to stick people in a corner or desk than go though the process. 

Been traveling a lot the past 2 weeks and the feeling I'm getting is disastrous for this strike long term. 1/2 the people are in the companies should give them their demands for fair compensation; they work hard and deserve that you can't live on $20 a hour(I know that's not the pay most get but some some that is the perception) . F them and I'm not buying their products  to send a message they should treat their employees better. The other half are F those workers they live on another planet striking for a 32 hours a week, full pension, 40% raise is BS they shouldn't make double of Teachers, Nurses and Public Safely workers. They put bolts on. I'm not buying their product let them join the unemployment line and see what a real job is like. 

In the end - no one buys the product and everyone is out of a job. Worse politicians are getting involved which will only enrage people to not buy products because they hate X so X = company/employee and I'm not supporting that. 

I have a very bad feeling that the effects from this will be felt for decades and perception of both the workers and the companies which will result in lost buyers from both sides. I was already seeing some early indications this is the beginning of another lost decade in Michigan where companies will invest elsewhere because of political and recruitment issues in the State, add labor unrest and you can be sure those companies will invest elsewhere. Real or Not. 

 

Hope you are wrong on the "decades" piece but it can't help keeping prospective buyers loyal to Ford, GM etc.  In particular when you hear for example the Toyota ads that stress "longest lasting, full service for a year blah blah.  I am a loyal Ford guy who grew up in a family where the cars, trucks and tractors were Fords...and I've instilled that in my two sons who have  never bought anything but Fords.  But think of the generations that have NOT grown up in loyal Ford, GM,  Mopar households.  There are too many in that category that don't have that ingrained loyalty and I fear  both the companies and the UAW will suffer as people say "enough".

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Why would I leave my retirement income in the hands of a company (or in the case of social security, the government) when I can have a 401k and have much greater control over it? It the whole pension concept doesn’t make sense to me. 

It made sense when you only worked for one company for life and 401Ks really weren’t a thing.  And there wasn’t much risk back then.  The big benefit of a 401k or defined contribution (cash balance) pension is you take it with you from company to company.  With a traditional pension you get almost nothing if you leave after 10 years.

 

I have the option of a lump sum or an annuity.  I’ll probably take the annuity because it’s equivalent to a guaranteed 6% annual ROI on the lump sum.  And I still have the 401K.  If I did not have the 401k I’d take the lump sum.  

[Oac98]

20 hours ago, akirby said:

It’s the same concept.  You’re paid to perform physical labor just like a painter.  Everyone is entitled to raises to offset inflation.  But the cost of that labor is set by the local market.  You can’t charge $10k for a paint job if all your competitors are only charging $5k for the same work.  Nobody will hire you.  Likewise nobody is paying a $10k premium to buy a Ford over a similar Toyota or Tesla just because the workers want more money.  And how much the ceo or the company makes is irrelevant because you’re still just being paid to perform a task and that task has a certain market value.  It may be hard work but so is digging ditches. 

 

i understand wanting more money and not wanting to change jobs but in the real world if you want more (beyond inflation) you either work to get a higher paying position (supervisor e.g.) or go to another company.  And if no company is offering more money for that work then that’s the market rate.

Look I’ll agree to disagree on this matter. Leave it at that. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

LMAO Nice striking a plant that hasn’t been able to sell what they build for the last 4 months.

 

What an absolute joke. 
 

Edit: The more I think about it the more pissed I’m getting. This motherfucker keeps talking a big game but when the time comes to throw hands, he’s blowing bubbles instead of throwing haymakers. I’m starting to believe he’s dragging this out just to be an asshole. Either take what’s on the table to a vote and whatever happens, happens or go for the throat and end this shit already. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[akirby]

43 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Look I’ll agree to disagree on this matter. Leave it at that. 

You can disagree but that’s how businesses work.  The only exceptions are products that are in short supply and super high demand but that’s usually temporary.  And products that people willingly overpay for like designer shoes and handbags.  Ford vehicles are not in the latter category.

[blackduty]

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Hope you are wrong on the "decades" piece but it can't help keeping prospective buyers loyal to Ford, GM etc.  In particular when you hear for example the Toyota ads that stress "longest lasting, full service for a year blah blah.  I am a loyal Ford guy who grew up in a family where the cars, trucks and tractors were Fords...and I've instilled that in my two sons who have  never bought anything but Fords.  But think of the generations that have NOT grown up in loyal Ford, GM,  Mopar households.  There are too many in that category that don't have that ingrained loyalty and I fear  both the companies and the UAW will suffer as people say "enough".

 

I probably shouldn't be posting in this section, because i'm not an employee. But i will say this much.

 

My family has always been loyal to Ford, and honestly will always stay loyal to Ford. No matter the outcome of the UAW contract. I have very close relatives that are currently employed by Ford, and retired from Ford. And to me, always being and staying loyal to Ford, feels in a way as though i'm helping to support my family. I've always been someone that does look a little beyond the product, into the people who are building that product. So by purchasing Ford, i'm doing my part to help insure my relatives continue to have employment. So as much as this strike isn't beneficial to the consumer, (i have a 2024 F450 on order, and concerns about it being built), this strike is beneficial to me as a person, because i do want to see my family taken care of. I've spent time over the past couple of weeks texting with my cousin who works at the Livonia Transmission plant, hoping he doesn't have to strike because the strike pay isn't very good. But also hoping demands are met so he can be in much better shape financially. He told me that after 2007, he didn't receive a raise for 12 years, and if the UAW hasn't given up COLA in 2007, he would be making $9/hr more right now, that's without any raises. 

 

So as a consumer, I do support this. I know first hand what inflation has done to me and people here, as well as people working in the auto industry. 

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Hope you are wrong on the "decades" piece but it can't help keeping prospective buyers loyal to Ford, GM etc.  In particular when you hear for example the Toyota ads that stress "longest lasting, full service for a year blah blah.  I am a loyal Ford guy who grew up in a family where the cars, trucks and tractors were Fords...and I've instilled that in my two sons who have  never bought anything but Fords.  But think of the generations that have NOT grown up in loyal Ford, GM,  Mopar households.  There are too many in that category that don't have that ingrained loyalty and I fear  both the companies and the UAW will suffer as people say "enough".

I come from a Ford family spanning 5 generations - over 30 people as I quickly count have worked/retired from Ford at some point in their life, virtually everyone can get (a/z) plan in the US and Canada and Focus and MKZ have been replaced with Civic and ES. A RAV4 plug in because you can’t get AWD on an Escape PIH and a few Tucson/CRV hybrid because the price was better and more features / availability than an Escape hybrid and a Ridgeline with hundreds of thousands of miles because there was no midsize truck in 2016. 
 

The damage being done now is virtually irreversible, the world has changed and when people feel their values have been violated the solution is not to deal with that company you might fix that in a few years but as it gets fixed and people forget you’re in another contract negotiation.
 

The biggest issue with this battle is that the statement that buyers make on both sides of the battle is the same solution. Don’t buy the product. 
 

I agree workers need and deserve raises but starting out asking for the moon and releasing those demands  then backing down and saying “oh we didn’t really want that” is stupid. This isn’t 1975 and the internet and media pickup on those unrealistic demands. The one local channel said workers on strike are demanding a 40% raise, 32 hour work weeks, expanded overtime, larger bonus, full pensions along with free healthcare. 

[Oac98]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

You can disagree but that’s how businesses work.  The only exceptions are products that are in short supply and super high demand but that’s usually temporary.  And products that people willingly overpay for like designer shoes and handbags.  Ford vehicles are not in the latter category.

People are overpaying for Fords and other brands it’s seems with the dealer mark up. I get what you’re saying anyways. Let’s just hope there is some sort of resolution to this contract. Like I said from the start 46 percent was never gonna happen, 4 day work week never gonna happen and as for pensions likely never gonna happen maybe minimal improvents but who knows. My question is what is the long term fallout? 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Oacjay98

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

You can disagree but that’s how businesses work.  The only exceptions are products that are in short supply and super high demand but that’s usually temporary.  And products that people willingly overpay for like designer shoes and handbags.  Ford vehicles are not in the latter category.

 

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

People are overpaying for Fords look and other brands it’s seems with the dealer mark up. I get what you’re saying anyways. Let’s just hope there is some sort of resolution to this contract. Like I said from the start 46 percent was never gonna happen, 4 day work week never gonna happen and as for pensions likely never gonna happen maybe minimal improvents but who knows. My question is what is the long term fallout? 

Overpaying ?...Barring HALO vehicles and really hard to get items those markups are Dealership dependent..... and keep in mind that added markup doesnt add a penny to Fords coffers at all....Ford doesnt make more profit if a vehcile sells for more at teh Dealership level...

Edited September 29, 2023 by Deanh

[paintguy]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I still don’t understand the fascination with a pension

Pensions are a tremendous benefit. Social Security averages about $1,800 a month $3,600 a month at age 66 if you make SS maximum. $3,600 isn't bad but not luxurious, even in retirement. Most financial planners use the 4% rule for retirees with drawing from savings. So if you want to replace $3,300 a month, you need $1 million. Requires disciplined consistent savings over many years. And direction to invest wisely. Unfortunately for companies, it also requires discipline. Many companies, and states,  did not invest wisely or even pay in funds. Federal government reigned that in requiring some massive payments. They don't want to do that again.

[fuzzymoomoo]

26 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Pensions are a tremendous benefit. Social Security averages about $1,800 a month $3,600 a month at age 66 if you make SS maximum. $3,600 isn't bad but not luxurious, even in retirement. Most financial planners use the 4% rule for retirees with drawing from savings. So if you want to replace $3,300 a month, you need $1 million. Requires disciplined consistent savings over many years. And direction to invest wisely. Unfortunately for companies, it also requires discipline. Many companies, and states,  did not invest wisely or even pay in funds. Federal government reigned that in requiring some massive payments. They don't want to do that again.

Maybe it’s just me being jaded from constantly seeing everything fall apart time and time again but I’m not planning on anything being available come the time I’m eligible to retire, if I’m ever even able to to begin with. Wouldn’t surprise me if I have to work until I’m in my 70s because retirement just isn’t an option. 

[Oac98]

59 minutes ago, Deanh said:

 

Overpaying ?...Barring HALO vehicles and really hard to get items those markups are Dealership dependent..... and keep in mind that added markup doesnt add a penny to Fords coffers at all....Ford doesnt make more profit if a vehcile sells for more at teh Dealership level...

They’re sold at cost to the dealers, correct??

[Oac98]

I just watched a livestream on the BLUEOVAL app and the major sticking points are the Battery plants and OF COURSE pensions. We all knew pensions were gonna be the biggest sticking point. I’m the webcast they said only 12 percent of Fortune 500 companies have defined benefit.