It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[akirby]

I must have been looking at the wrong one,

[Rick73]

48 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

And that "answer" is the easiest one in the history of answers to refute.

 

Model 3:

 

Model Y:

 

Thanks rperez817, I was not aware that Tesla had started offering the Model Y in RWD variant in US.  I knew they had started offering the lower-cost Y in Europe, but not in US.  When my son got his Model 3, he liked the Y better but price difference between his RWD Model 3 and an AWD Model Y was not worth it for him (about $10k).  At a difference of $5,000 he might have chosen the Model Y.

 

It appears Tesla is doing everything possible to lower costs and attract more buyers.  Third quarter disappointment must have been a shock.

[Trader 10]

19 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Unfortunately, "first" in this particular example also ranks among the worst new product introductions from Ford in the past 30 years. It's what Dan Neil described as a "lamentable rentable" in his review of Five Hundred's twin, Mercury Montego. A senior moment - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

 

The 500 wasn’t a great car but it was in no way one of the worst new car product introductions from Ford in the past 30 years. Ever heard of the EcoSport? You’re cherry picking test. Most tests from that era ranked it mid pack among its competition (Car & Driver rated it 4th among 6 in a July 2005 test). It was a much better car than the Taurus it replaced, let down by the 3.0 duratech motor and dowdy styling, both of which were corrected by the time the name changed back to Taurus. The 3.0 Duratech was a weak engine compared to the competition. The 3.8 GM V-6 , for example, was faster, smoother, and got better mileage and its OHV configuration was a lot cheaper to manufacture. Hard to figure how Ford could develop a new motor that couldn’t match designs that had been around for decades and was more expensive to boot  

 

[CurtisH]

3 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

The 3.0 Duratech was a weak engine compared to the competition. The 3.8 GM V-6 , for example, wasfaster, smoother, and got better mileage and its OHV configuration was a lot cheaper to manufacture. Hard to figure how Ford could develop a new motor that couldn’t match designs that had been around for decades and was more expensive to boot

The Duratec 3.0 was not new.  It was first used in the 1996 Taurus.  I believe it was initially paired with a CVT, which did not help.  The CVT didn’t have a wide enough gear range and the 3.0 didn’t have a lot of torque.  

[DeluxeStang]

19 hours ago, AM222 said:

I still think this would be a good replacement for both the Fusion and the 2-row North American Edge. It's literally between a Fusion sedan and an Edge CUV/SUV. It also manages to look sportier than a Mach E.

Apparently the evos isn't coming to the U. S. period. I thought their game plan was going to be to offer the next generation mach-e in multiple body styles, which is apparently happening considering the next gen shows a mach-e, and a mach-e coupe version. So a coupe body style like the current car, and a blockier shape with better utility to appeal to edge buyers. Switching to a dedicated BEV platform would have saved a lot of money, and likely made the next mach-e more affordable. 

 

But, with this slow transition, I don't know if Ford would still try to replace the edge with an EV. Not replacing the edge at all seems kind of insane. Even if the mach-e gets to the point where it's essentially the same price as a edge, we're almost there when you compare base model prices, it's still gonna be really hard to win over edge buyers with an EV.

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, CurtisH said:

The Duratec 3.0 was not new.  It was first used in the 1996 Taurus.  I believe it was initially paired with a CVT, which did not help.  The CVT didn’t have a wide enough gear range and the 3.0 didn’t have a lot of torque.  

 

Wasn't it based on the 2.5L Duratec that came out in the first Gen Mondeo and Contour also?

 

IIRC I think that engine was done by Porsche and sold to Ford. 

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

But, with this slow transition, I don't know if Ford would still try to replace the edge with an EV. Not replacing the edge at all seems kind of insane. Even if the mach-e gets to the point where it's essentially the same price as a edge, we're almost there when you compare base model prices, it's still gonna be really hard to win over edge buyers with an EV.

What’s missed in the conversation is that a comparable Edge is something like $25,000 less to make

than a Mach E. Those sort of figures are not missed the accountants… Ford has fought the good fight

with Mach E but if customers are not buying as expected, it becomes another MKT, kept around long

enough to recover product development costs.

 

I wonder if Ford is starting to soul search and wonder how many assumptions they got wrong in their

haste for mass  BEVs, how many good ICE and hybrid product cases were tossed aside to give BEVs

an easier pathway….

Edited October 27, 2023 by jpd80

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Wasn't it based on the 2.5L Duratec that came out in the first Gen Mondeo and Contour also?

 

IIRC I think that engine was done by Porsche and sold to Ford. 

Ford bought the engineering from Porsche and yes it was just a bored out 2.5.  Had it in my 06 Fusion.  It was also used in Lincoln LS and Jag Stype and a few Mazdas.   Never had a problem but it wasn’t anything to write home about either.

[twintornados]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

.... Never had a problem but it wasn’t anything to write home about either.

 

The fact that the motor never had a problem IS something to write home about.

[rperez817]

12 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

Hard to figure how Ford could develop a new motor that couldn’t match designs that had been around for decades and was more expensive to boot.

 

That's one example among many of outcomes resulting from the dysfunctional "Not Invented Here Syndrome" that afflicted Ford back then. Autoextremist, when he came to his senses, accurately described the situation as follows.

 

Ford wrote the book on “Not Invented Here” – Ford will take an idea and do it better, cheaper and in less time. The reality is something altogether different. After Ford operatives get their hands on an idea, it will cost twice as much, take twice as long and be not even remotely better. The company has demonstrated time and time again that left to its own devices, it will inevitably deliver less than. Every. Single. Time.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

The fact that the motor never had a problem IS something to write home about.

Not for me personally.  I’ve only had one engine problem on a vehicle and that was a defective head on our 2003 Aviator DOHC 4.6L.  But overall I do think the 3.0 was relatively bulletproof which can’t be said for most newer engines.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's one example among many of outcomes resulting from the dysfunctional "Not Invented Here Syndrome" that afflicted Ford back then. Autoextremist, when he came to his senses, accurately described the situation as follows.

Wrong as usual.  They actually bought the engineering from Porsche and there were never any complaints about the Stype or Lincoln LS versions.  The 500 problem was the CVT not the engine.  The only problem was that it had less power than the 3.5 which became the de facto standard size for all mfrs.

[AM222]

20 hours ago, rmc523 said:

EVOS I think is larger, therefore longer, - longer spreads out proportions better to make it look sportier.

 

EVOS would NOT work as an Edge replacement - I think it'd do ok as a Fusion replacement.

Evos is 2+ inches shorter and lower than the Crosstour.

Given Ford's limited portfolio, the Evos could work as a replacement for both Fusion and 2-row Edge. 

[rperez817]

18 minutes ago, akirby said:

The 500 problem was the CVT not the engine.

 

The Ford Five Hundred problem was that the car itself was a turd.

[AM222]

9 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Apparently the evos isn't coming to the U. S. period.

EV sales are slowing down, just saying having a mid-size ICE product for the next couple of years, pure or hybrid would be a good option.
Who knows, based on earlier reports, it was the end of the Lincoln Nautilus in North America — then they launched the all-new Nautilus.

Edited October 27, 2023 by AM222

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

EV sales are slowing down, just saying having a mid-size ICE product for the next couple of years, pure or hybrid would be a good option.
Who knows, based on earlier reports, it was the end of the Lincoln Nautilus in North America — then they launched the all-new Nautilus.

What is going on now with EVs is just going to be a short term issue..Edge sales have been falling 

 

Year	U.S.[28]	China[29]	Europe[30]	Mexico[31]
2006	2,202			38
2007	130,125			2,710
2008	110,798			3,103
2009	88,548			2,405
2010	118,637			2,817
2011	121,702			3,379
2012	127,969			3,586
2013	129,109			2,155
2014	108,864			1,148
2015	124,120	65,152		1,631
2016	134,588	123,690	9,300	1,844
2017	142,603	108,525	16,000	1,327
2018	134,122	59,892	9,500	898
2019	138,515	32,815	8,644	850
2020	108,886	25,709	3,722	325
2021	85,225	31,091		261
2022	85,465	22,684

 

The Nautilus is a bit of a different situation since they only would have had 3 products to sell, where as someone in an Edge, could go to an Escape, Bronco or Bronco Sport (Not saying the would, but those are options)

[rmc523]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

Evos is 2+ inches shorter and lower than the Crosstour.

Given Ford's limited portfolio, the Evos could work as a replacement for both Fusion and 2-row Edge. 

 

Edge buyers don't want something that low.

 

26 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

What is going on now with EVs is just going to be a short term issue..Edge sales have been falling 

 

Year	U.S.[28]	China[29]	Europe[30]	Mexico[31]
2006	2,202			38
2007	130,125			2,710
2008	110,798			3,103
2009	88,548			2,405
2010	118,637			2,817
2011	121,702			3,379
2012	127,969			3,586
2013	129,109			2,155
2014	108,864			1,148
2015	124,120	65,152		1,631
2016	134,588	123,690	9,300	1,844
2017	142,603	108,525	16,000	1,327
2018	134,122	59,892	9,500	898
2019	138,515	32,815	8,644	850
2020	108,886	25,709	3,722	325
2021	85,225	31,091		261
2022	85,465	22,684

 

The Nautilus is a bit of a different situation since they only would have had 3 products to sell, where as someone in an Edge, could go to an Escape, Bronco or Bronco Sport (Not saying the would, but those are options)

 

Edge sales have been falling because it's been on the market too long.

2017 was its highest year ever, and the 2019 refresh nearly matched that figure before covid happened.

 

Fast forward to now - we have Edge now going into it 8th-9th model year without a full redesign, and it's no wonder buyers are moving on - Ford repeatedly doesn't learn its lesson and creats a self-fulfilling prophecy of falling sales by extending lifecycles years beyond sell-by dates.  Meanwhile competitors have refreshes and redesigns like clockwork.

 

 

Here's a live feed Ford wondering why customers aren't buying its 9 year old products:

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by rmc523

[iamweasel]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Edge buyers don't want something that low.

 

 

Edge sales have been falling because it's been on the market too long.

2017 was its highest year ever, and the 2019 refresh nearly matched that figure before covid happened.

 

Fast forward to now - we have Edge now going into it 8th-9th model year without a full redesign, and it's no wonder buyers are moving on - Ford repeatedly doesn't learn its lesson and creats a self-fulfilling prophecy of falling sales by extending lifecycles years beyond sell-by dates.  Meanwhile competitors have refreshes and redesigns like clockwork.

 

 

Here's a live feed Ford wondering why customers aren't buying its 9 year old products:

 

 

Part of the issue with the Edge is that it was built in Oakville, which has always been at the top of the list for the "what plant do we close next" crowd inside Ford.   Between labor issues, exchange rate complications and land/facility issues at that plant I'm surprised it's still going, honestly.   All the "do we close it or not" proposals running through the company over the years tends to scare away the strategy planners from allocating funds to those models for refreshes/new launches.  That's part of the reason it didn't get a lot of changes over the years.

[jpd80]

Plus the fact that the CD6 Edge/Nautilus was completely screwed up and dropped very late in development, that left Ford with no choice but to continue on with tired legs FWD/AWD Edge. Had Ford simply migrated the FWD Edge to C2, a lot of those lost sales probably never happen.

Then again, there’s Bronco for those that like chunky SUVs….and it’s milder global cousin, Everest which is a damn fine vehicle….

 

 

 

[CurtisH]

12 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Wasn't it based on the 2.5L Duratec that came out in the first Gen Mondeo and Contour also?

 

IIRC I think that engine was done by Porsche and sold to Ford. 

Yes, that’s correct.  It was actually a good engine.  Ford probably should have done a bit more to keep it up to date,  I had it in 2 vehicles (Taurus and Escape) and really liked it. 

[jpd80]

15 minutes ago, CurtisH said:

Yes, that’s correct.  It was actually a good engine.  Ford probably should have done a bit more to keep it up to date,  I had it in 2 vehicles (Taurus and Escape) and really liked it. 

I’m surprised that they kept the 3.0 V6 as long as they did, Mulally had a huge purge of V6 engines in the late 2000s something like five or six were  retired.

Edited October 27, 2023 by jpd80

[atomcat68]

On 10/26/2023 at 9:41 AM, LSchicago said:

Actually, The AMC eagle was the first raised sedan that I know of. 

Ah, of course! How could I forget that? With all the body styles it was the first raised sedan, CUV, and CUV coupe (a coupe with real 2 doors). There was even a convertible before the Murano as well.

[jpd80]

We have an intersting situation in Australia with pricing,

Ford is pricing the Mach E same as in the UK AUS$85,000/ UK£44,000/ USD$69,000

while Tesla prices the Y like the USA AUS$65,000/USD$44,000

 

so yeah, the Mach E’s price is AUS$15,000 more expensive that entry 2WD, mid and upper models.

I don’t see Ford making much sales traction, you’d really have to want a Mach E to pay that much more.

We are hoping that dealers go back to Ford and tell them not to bother unless the prices are much  closer

[pictor]

Same as here. Just ordered a long range mode 3. Would like to have ordered a Mach E but the cost after incentives and trade in of 9:year old Audi would have been around 15,000 more to get a car with similar range.  I  evaluated the final cost of all similar range EV’s and nothing from VW, Kia, Hyundai, Chevy came close for 300  mile plus range vehicles.  So far the buying experience has been painless, the user experience on the website  exemplary.   

[ExplorerDude]

On 10/27/2023 at 7:47 AM, jpd80 said:

What’s missed in the conversation is that a comparable Edge is something like $25,000 less to make

than a Mach E. Those sort of figures are not missed the accountants… Ford has fought the good fight

with Mach E but if customers are not buying as expected, it becomes another MKT, kept around long

enough to recover product development costs.

 

I wonder if Ford is starting to soul search and wonder how many assumptions they got wrong in their

haste for mass  BEVs, how many good ICE and hybrid product cases were tossed aside to give BEVs

an easier pathway….

The amount of product programs started and then shelved is probably somewhere in the 15 to 20 range. What will really be interesting is to see how many Model E programs are now shelved or paused.