rmc523 Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 18 hours ago, Sherminator98 said: Strike lasted from 15 September to October 31st. I think that the Ranger was done at that point because they where tooling up for the new model and that didn't really hit the lots till May or so of this year. I meant for sales overall for the strike comment (in addition to MAP) - they were definitely impacted at the end of the year, which makes growth this year look a lot better (starting from a lower point).....it's great to see Ranger rebound though. 16 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That was something Jim Hackett tried to change. TBD if he actually accomplished that, we haven’t seen anything truly new since Maverick was launched. Yeah, Ford loves to do something great and then not follow it up. Don't know why they can't follow up something like Maverick with other similar products (the development process). 10 hours ago, ANTAUS said: I'm amused at the Nautilus sales... It's not Lincoln's entry model, but rather the one above it, made in China, that's the best seller this year. Guess many do not care or know it's made in China... the irony... Natuilus (and MKX before it) have long been Lincoln's best seller, so that fact isn't unusual. But the China thing - I'd imagine most have no idea it's built there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 I'd say the biggest issue with new products is getting the sub manufactures of components up to speed to build things, just look at the shitshow with the Bronco hardtops...and I think they are just starting to launch painted ones almost 4 years after production started (not sure if the same company making them either) Just looking at the industry I work in-it took over 6 years to replace what is basically a laptop use for troubleshooting electronics to be fielded. Many of the problems where that it was one of the first times we did it internally, so we where learning as we where going and COVID didn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 16 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That was something Jim Hackett tried to change. TBD if he actually accomplished that, we haven’t seen anything truly new since Maverick was launched. Hasn't Ford's plan changed at least twice since then? 😛 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 11 hours ago, akirby said: They spent most of the first two years figuring out how (and if) to build cheap EVs. They were designing tools and processes and parts not complete vehicles. I’d say they e only been working on the actual vehicles for 6-12 months. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I understand what you're saying and can appreciate the points you've made, but I think that you're giving Ford too much credit. At least for now I think that so far, the "Skunkworks" project that Ford keeps teasing is nothing but a "Smoke & Mirrors" campaign to convince people, including Wall Street, that Ford has this breakthrough project that will make a major difference. I'll reserve judgement until we see something that actually gives this "Skunkworks" project credibility other than being another "Ford has a better idea" campaign. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan20 Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 27 minutes ago, ice-capades said: I'll reserve judgement until we see something that actually gives this "Skunkworks" project credibility other than being another "Ford has a better idea" campaign. Yea, I'm with you ice-capades. When I worked at Ford & Visteon in the 1990s and 2000s, one of my coworkers reminded me of that line from Nicky Santoro in the movie Casino, "He could fuck-up a cup of coffee" to describe the Ford big shots and their "better ideas" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 20 minutes ago, ice-capades said: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I understand what you're saying and can appreciate the points you've made, but I think that you're giving Ford too much credit. At least for now I think that so far, the "Skunkworks" project that Ford keeps teasing is nothing but a "Smoke & Mirrors" campaign to convince people, including Wall Street, that Ford has this breakthrough project that will make a major difference. I'll reserve judgement until we see something that actually gives this "Skunkworks" project credibility other than being another "Ford has a better idea" campaign. I get it, but as a former IT/network engineer we used to do these all the time. Get a small group to look at solutions to a problem with a clean slate and in this case they brought in some pretty smart folks from other tech companies including Tesla and Rivian. If this was just internal Ford veterans I might agree with you. I think they’re looking at every component from design to manufacturing to battery technology to electronics with lowest cost in mind. I expect a lot of simplification from design to controls to manufacturing along with cheaper better batteries and cheaper components. I don’t think they would be going forward if they didn’t have high confidence they can pull it off. It was a skunkworks project nobody knew about and it would have just died quietly. Of course there is risk that what they have on paper doesn’t quite come to fruition but that team has folks with lots of actual experience with this exact technology so I’m more hopeful than normal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 Just now, morgan20 said: Yea, I'm with you ice-capades. When I worked at Ford & Visteon in the 1990s and 2000s, one of my coworkers reminded me of that line from Nicky Santoro in the movie Casino, "He could fuck-up a cup of coffee" to describe the Ford big shots and their "better ideas" Good thing they don’t have Ford big shots on the skunkworks team. That’s why Farley brought in outsiders from Tesla, Rivian and other tech companies. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan20 Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 5 minutes ago, akirby said: Good thing they don’t have Ford big shots on the skunkworks team. That’s why Farley brought in outsiders from Tesla, Rivian and other tech companies. Yea, good reminder. Maybe I should be more optimistic about seein' actual vehicles from Ford skunkworks next year 🤞 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 13 hours ago, akirby said: Good thing they don’t have Ford big shots on the skunkworks team. That’s why Farley brought in outsiders from Tesla, Rivian and other tech companies. Exactly so, Farley wanted to get this team as far away from Ford’s Engineering Division as possible. When it comes to developing an affordable BEV, Ford ED has proven incapable of getting anywhere near that. This is the ED that requires up to 150 separate modules in a vehicle and then criticises Rivian for having an incompatible centralised ECU system… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 18 hours ago, akirby said: I get it, but as a former IT/network engineer we used to do these all the time. Get a small group to look at solutions to a problem with a clean slate and in this case they brought in some pretty smart folks from other tech companies including Tesla and Rivian. If this was just internal Ford veterans I might agree with you. I think they’re looking at every component from design to manufacturing to battery technology to electronics with lowest cost in mind. I expect a lot of simplification from design to controls to manufacturing along with cheaper better batteries and cheaper components. I don’t think they would be going forward if they didn’t have high confidence they can pull it off. It was a skunkworks project nobody knew about and it would have just died quietly. Of course there is risk that what they have on paper doesn’t quite come to fruition but that team has folks with lots of actual experience with this exact technology so I’m more hopeful than normal. All good points. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 For a BEV to be both affordable and practical, it will have to be extremely efficient. Assuming skunkworks project is successful in reaching that level of efficiency, will buyers buy such a vehicle? Based on comments made by many on this forum, that premise should be questioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 This forums is not the EV's main target audience, it is more of echo chamber for ICE stalwarts. After driving an EV for year I can say categorically that I would not replace it with ICE vehicle. The problem with any social media is they tend to aggregate like minded folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 On 12/4/2024 at 6:29 PM, fuzzymoomoo said: Speaking of, I’m very glad I don’t work at that plant right now Are they laying a lot of people off or something? I'm genuinely concerned about the future of that plant. I don't see how it survives just making the mustang, but it feels like Ford refuses to allocate any other product towards it. Personally, with Ford leaning into iconic enthusiasts cars, I feel like doing something like a new RS 200 or escort, something low enough to be built at flat rock, would be a solid strategy. But if seems like Ford has other plans. I just don't understand letting your plant die on the vine like this, leaving it perpetually underutilized because you're convinced that's better than offering some sort of low slung car beyond the mustang. There are ways to do that while still learning into the premium enthusiast market, but I guess Ford thinks leaving all that production capacity on the table is the smarter idea. I love Ford, but when they make decisions like that, it feels like they deserve to fail at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 20 minutes ago, pictor said: This forums is not the EV's main target audience, it is more of echo chamber for ICE stalwarts. After driving an EV for year I can say categorically that I would not replace it with ICE vehicle. The problem with any social media is they tend to aggregate like minded folks. Agreed. When my maverick is in ev only mode, I'm like, I love this. The ideal garage imo is having a decent ev for the week days, and a 5.0 mustang on the weekends. Give me that diversity in driving and ownership experiences, I love that about owning different kinds of cars. As a massive car enthusiast, I've grown to love EVs, because EVs make the normal every day cars better. You can make them more reliable, more refined, better handling, spacious, and better looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 22 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: Are they laying a lot of people off or something? I'm genuinely concerned about the future of that plant. I don't see how it survives just making the mustang, but it feels like Ford refuses to allocate any other product towards it..... According to the UAW contract, a new vehicle is slated for Flat Rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 2 minutes ago, mackinaw said: According to the UAW contract, a new vehicle is slated for Flat Rock. Haven't we heard that before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 5 minutes ago, mackinaw said: According to the UAW contract, a new vehicle is slated for Flat Rock. It would be perfect for a low cost hybrid or EV production line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 11 hours ago, jpd80 said: Exactly so, Farley wanted to get this team as far away from Ford’s Engineering Division as possible. When it comes to developing an affordable BEV, Ford ED has proven incapable of getting anywhere near that. This is the ED that requires up to 150 separate modules in a vehicle and then criticises Rivian for having an incompatible centralised ECU system… If ford’s engineering dept isn’t cutting it, then that whole dept needs to be revamped. Hopefully this skunkworks is only temporary and the lessons they learn get passed on to engineering to right the ship so to speak. 1 hour ago, pictor said: This forums is not the EV's main target audience, it is more of echo chamber for ICE stalwarts. After driving an EV for year I can say categorically that I would not replace it with ICE vehicle. The problem with any social media is they tend to aggregate like minded folks. I disagree. I think this forum represents the auto-buying public quite well with a wide range of views. Look at all the disagreements we have in every topic 🤣. I think everyone here is open to the idea of EVs. My personal view is that they are perfect for urban families with multiple vehicles. If you are single, live in rural areas, or drive long distances often, an EV makes things more complicated. They aren’t quite ready for prime time yet. Once solid state batteries are common place and infrastructure is built out more, more people will be willing to take a chance on EVs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 22 minutes ago, mackinaw said: According to the UAW contract, a new vehicle is slated for Flat Rock. Apparently whatever that is doesn't seem to be moving forward. At the very least, it hasn't been openly talked about within the plant as much as it used to be, the rumors have died down. We don't know what it is, other than Fuzzy implied it wasn't a mustang sedan or the mustang raptor. I've often said some sort of c8 rival be it a mid-engine mustang or RS 200 would generate a lot of profit for Ford, and would make good use of a plant that's just sitting there. But I guess Ford doesn't want to go after that market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 1 hour ago, mackinaw said: According to the UAW contract, a new vehicle is slated for Flat Rock. pending program approval is the caveat there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 14 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: pending program approval is the caveat there I know you've said you don't want to say exactly what it is, but could you give us a bit of a hint/teaser? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said: I know you've said you don't want to say exactly what it is, but could you give us a bit of a hint/teaser? Nope. I’m not even sure what I thought it was was even a possibility anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, T-dubz said: If ford’s engineering dept isn’t cutting it, then that whole dept needs to be revamped. Hopefully this skunkworks is only temporary and the lessons they learn get passed on to engineering to right the ship so to speak. Precisely, it’s also why Farley is starting to question how ICE vehicles are designed and made. In a recent EV discussion, Farley shared that one particular vehicle had up to 150 control modules (I’m betting F150) and to save $500/vehicle, ford let out the contract individually to tender so none of them actually talk to each other - example, Ford has to go to Bosch if it wants to change seat control. Recent chip shortage exposed a huge issue with Ford and other carmaker designs, it’s way past time that institutionalised design rules be changed and streamlined to simplify build processes. It’s like the designs became overly complex because departments were preserving or at least justify their existence. Edited December 6, 2024 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2024 Share Posted December 6, 2024 Very good offers on Mach E, no wonder sales have stepped up last month https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io Also really good deals on Lightning, 0% finance for 72 months plus $4,500 bonus cash and free home charger https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplorerDude Posted December 7, 2024 Share Posted December 7, 2024 8 hours ago, ice-capades said: Haven't we heard that before? An additional body style / configuration (4-door) plus a possible high end Lincoln variant would add volume (if approved). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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