New Ford Product Investments

[Trader 10]

https://fordauthority.com/2023/10/tentative-uaw-deal-includes-8-billion-investment-from-ford/

 

The possible new product at Flat Rock is intriguing although it would require far more than $50 million. 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Trader 10 said:

https://fordauthority.com/2023/10/tentative-uaw-deal-includes-8-billion-investment-from-ford/

 

The possible new product at Flat Rock is intriguing although it would require far more than $50 million. 

That’s not enough for a whole new product, more like changes to cover something like a hybrid

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

That’s not enough for a whole new product, more like changes to cover something like a hybrid

But isn’t that just the plant investment?  I don’t think that’s the vehicle development costs.

[DeluxeStang]

21 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

That’s not enough for a whole new product, more like changes to cover something like a hybrid

Potentially, but the wording in these contracts has always referred to things like additional powertrains and performance variants of the mustang as derivatives. They described this as a new product, so something outside of the mustang most likely. Seems like that budget will increase if the new product is approved. 

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

But isn’t that just the plant investment?  I don’t think that’s the vehicle development costs.

Yes, what I meant was plant preparation, not developing the product.

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Potentially, but the wording in these contracts has always referred to things like additional powertrains and performance variants of the mustang as derivatives. They described this as a new product, so something outside of the mustang most likely. Seems like that budget will increase if the new product is approved. 

As I said above, the $50 million could be just for plant preparation, not the PD side, Ford sometimes is a deliberately vague/misdirection in what it says, probably trying not to reveal too much….

 

Oh and anything electric, Ford PR tries to count as a new vehicle even hybrids on an existing ICE.

A few years back they were counting different trims as new models, so I’m thinking that kind of talk.

Edited October 31, 2023 by jpd80

[Twin Turbo]

It's unusual for Ford to be so candid about future product, but Mr Farley has, twice now, hinted at future Mustang product. Remember he tweeted "should we build a road going Mustang GT3?"......then a few months later, the GTD is revealed. 

 

Back in August, he hinted a hybrid Mustang coupe was likely.

https://fordauthority.com/2023/08/ford-mustang-hybrid-coupe-more-realistic-than-ev-farley/

 

Given we know Flat Rock's paint process can only cope with low vehicles, we can assume any new product will be a variation of the Mustang coupe line-up, so this $50m could go towards prepping for a hybrid S650.

[Bob Rosadini]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

But isn’t that just the plant investment?  I don’t think that’s the vehicle development costs.

I've had that same thought..or question.  Focusing on the 2billion for OAP, a lot of money and focusing on my favorite subject, medium duty, a bit disappointing to read "medium truck will continue". That doesn't  bode well if that translates to "more of the same".

 

Now if engineering/design is NOT in that number maybe there is hope that a future exists for the medium segment.  I don't see how Ford can be a real player in commercial without paying attention to  that segment.  Medium is a natural progression for so many businesses.  You see a start up commercial venture and they have vans, then step vans and "bigger is better" takes over and they are into24' box trucks.  Amazon is a good example..at least in this area.  I'm seeing more and more Hino conventionals wearing Prime colors.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Good points, typical small business that needs trucks starts with whatever car they have, then as volume grows they upgrade to a van or pickup. Beyond that Ford loses them with uncompetitive medium duty offerings and nothing with more than two axles that can pull a single "pup" trailer at best. Daimler understands this, that's why they've got their Mercedes car dealers selling Sprinters!

[jpd80]

It’s strange that Ford will spend upwards of $2 billion on Oakville for BEV products that don’t clinic well but then seems to penny pinch on what should be logical hybrid derivatives of existing vehicles. Perhaps that’s a symptom of being rather single focused on BEV development. In any case, I hope that this delay in the $12 billion BEV funding is put to good use with Ford playing to its current strengths.

Edited October 31, 2023 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

6 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Good points, typical small business that needs trucks starts with whatever car they have, then as volume grows they upgrade to a van or pickup. Beyond that Ford loses them with uncompetitive medium duty offerings and nothing with more than two axles that can pull a single "pup" trailer at best. Daimler understands this, that's why they've got their Mercedes car dealers selling Sprinters!

 

Mercedes had to give the Sprinter to their car dealers, Freightliner dealers wanted nothing to do with them!  It played out well now that Daimler Trucks has been spun off of Mercedes-Benz.  As for Ford, 'medium duty continues' at Avon Lake doesn't mean much, I think they are just telling the UAW that the product will continue for the foreseeable future and no workforce reductions are planned in connection with the medium duty trucks..  I don't see Ford spending any money on the 650 and 750 considering their sales volume and offering vendor-supplied engines and transmissions along with more chassis and axle options will very likely make the trucks even less profitable than they are now.      

[Deanh]

37 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Mercedes had to give the Sprinter to their car dealers, Freightliner dealers wanted nothing to do with them!  It played out well now that Daimler Trucks has been spun off of Mercedes-Benz.  As for Ford, 'medium duty continues' at Avon Lake doesn't mean much, I think they are just telling the UAW that the product will continue for the foreseeable future and no workforce reductions are planned in connection with the medium duty trucks..  I don't see Ford spending any money on the 650 and 750 considering their sales volume and offering vendor-supplied engines and transmissions along with more chassis and axle options will very likely make the trucks even less profitable than they are now.      

diesels are now past tense in the 650s and up....writing is on the wall for Diesels full stop I think...isntFord testing hydrogen heavy duties?

[GearheadGrrrl]

Cummins does hydrogen fuel too, Daimler is already a customer.

[7Mary3]

7 hours ago, Deanh said:

diesels are now past tense in the 650s and up....writing is on the wall for Diesels full stop I think...isntFord testing hydrogen heavy duties?

 

Good point, you will see a lot of medium duty truck diesel engines phased out over the next few years due to the more stringent NOX standards coming in 2027.  Stop-start technology will be one of the strategies implemented.  I would tend to think that engines like the 6.7L Cummins, 6.6L Duramax, and 6.7L Powerstroke will continue due to their popularity in lighter personal-use trucks.

 

Cummins will have a 6.7L gasoline engine available soon for medium duty trucks, look for wide adoption by the OEM's currently offering the 6.7L diesel.  Ford will finally have a lot of competition in the gasoline engine class 6 and 7 field. 

 

A certain fleet I am familiar with may be testing a hydrogen fuel cell F-550 in the future.  Interesting that it's supposed to be an F-550, not a 650/750.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by 7Mary3

[twintornados]

18 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I've had that same thought..or question.  Focusing on the 2billion for OAP, a lot of money and focusing on my favorite subject, medium duty, a bit disappointing to read "medium truck will continue". That doesn't  bode well if that translates to "more of the same".

 

Now if engineering/design is NOT in that number maybe there is hope that a future exists for the medium segment.  I don't see how Ford can be a real player in commercial without paying attention to  that segment.  Medium is a natural progression for so many businesses.  You see a start up commercial venture and they have vans, then step vans and "bigger is better" takes over and they are into24' box trucks.  Amazon is a good example..at least in this area.  I'm seeing more and more Hino conventionals wearing Prime colors.

 

I like to think that when it reads, "medium truck will continue" means that Ford intends to stay in that market and not abandon it like they did with Class 8.

[jpd80]

14 hours ago, Deanh said:

diesels are now past tense in the 650s and up....writing is on the wall for Diesels full stop I think...isntFord testing hydrogen heavy duties?

Since Ford took the MDs and it’s engines in house, it created a niche  market of affordable gasoline trucks

for those fleet owners who don’t require the diesel’s max tow/haul numbers.The very reason why the F600

was created was to give F650 buyers the choice of a beefed up F550.

 

The 7.3 Godzilla V8 has made all that possible, a remarkable engine that spans the entire F Series range.

 

 

[Tico]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:11 AM, Twin Turbo said:

It's unusual for Ford to be so candid about future product, but Mr Farley has, twice now, hinted at future Mustang product. Remember he tweeted "should we build a road going Mustang GT3?"......then a few months later, the GTD is revealed. 

 

Back in August, he hinted a hybrid Mustang coupe was likely.

https://fordauthority.com/2023/08/ford-mustang-hybrid-coupe-more-realistic-than-ev-farley/

 

Given we know Flat Rock's paint process can only cope with low vehicles, we can assume any new product will be a variation of the Mustang coupe line-up, so this $50m could go towards prepping for a hybrid S650.

Ecoboost hybrid or only V8? A V8 hybrid will be a high priced offering that will sell in limited quantities.  It will cost as much as the Mach E higher trim levels. More toys for the rich. What about the rest of us? I would rather see an Ecoboost hybrid that more people could afford. Toyota just annouced good profits the last quarter partly do to having so many hybrid sales. Yes I have owned both V8 and Ecoboost Mustangs. 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Tico said:

Ecoboost hybrid or only V8? A V8 hybrid will be a high priced offering that will sell in limited quantities.  It will cost as much as the Mach E higher trim levels. More toys for the rich. What about the rest of us? I would rather see an Ecoboost hybrid that more people could afford. Toyota just annouced good profits the last quarter partly do to having so many hybrid sales. Yes I have owned both V8 and Ecoboost Mustangs. 

 

The 2.3L ecoboost hybrid exists and would be a no brainer in all of these products:

Explorer

Mustang

Bronco

Ranger

 

I'm perplexed that Ford didn't announce any of these in the contract, since pretty much 3 out of the 4 products would use almost identical engineering to fit them into. The Mustang would be a bit more complex since its based on an older platform. Plus you'd think they would be needed to meet the upcoming EPA CAFE regulations, even with increased EV sales. 

[Bob Rosadini]

6 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

I like to think that when it reads, "medium truck will continue" means that Ford intends to stay in that market and not abandon it like they did with Class 8.

Yes ...Like I said..doesn't bode well ...means more of same.  And with all the comments of demise of diesels in medium duty, you would think with the 7.3 they would be enhancing the 650/750 "package" but I guess that doesn't fit the "Ford Pro" definition.

 

I've beat this dead horse before...No air brake option with 7.3 power.  They are clueless IMO.  There is a big class of buyers that are in class 6 and 7 who pull trailers..as in tag trailers.  So they can't get a diesel..so they get a gas engine...so Ford says.."no problem, you can buy a 750 with a 7.3 and electric brakes will work just fine when you are pulling your very expensive loader-backhoe."

[Footballfan]

10 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The 2.3L ecoboost hybrid exists and would be a no brainer in all of these products:

Explorer

Mustang

Bronco

Ranger

 

I'm perplexed that Ford didn't announce any of these in the contract, since pretty much 3 out of the 4 products would use almost identical engineering to fit them into. The Mustang would be a bit more complex since its based on an older platform. Plus you'd think they would be needed to meet the upcoming EPA CAFE regulations, even with increased EV sales. 

I think it was under Dearborn Engine in the Highlighter.  

[Bob Rosadini]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Since Ford took the MDs and it’s engines in house, it created a niche  market of affordable gasoline trucks

for those fleet owners who don’t require the diesel’s max tow/haul numbers.The very reason why the F600

was created was to give F650 buyers the choice of a beefed up F550.

 

The 7.3 Godzilla V8 has made all that possible, a remarkable engine that spans the entire F Series range.

 

 

Agree  JP but as I have said before,  7.3 has BETTER numbers than the old 477 Super Duty...and there were plenty of those in T950 tandems in the old days.  The F-600 is a nice alternative to a 350.  But it is not a medium duty truck that I would want to own (or drive) if I had to pull my 410 Deere TLB behind my 6-8 yd dump truck

[GearheadGrrrl]

I have too many bad memories of medium duty trucks with hydraulic brakes... I want air brakes on the truck and trailer!

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The 2.3L ecoboost hybrid exists and would be a no brainer in all of these products:

Explorer

Mustang

Bronco

Ranger

 

I'm perplexed that Ford didn't announce any of these in the contract, since pretty much 3 out of the 4 products would use almost identical engineering to fit them into. The Mustang would be a bit more complex since its based on an older platform. Plus you'd think they would be needed to meet the upcoming EPA CAFE regulations, even with increased EV sales. 

 

Agreed - seems like something's missing - maybe it'll be a "surprise, look what we're adding" type of thing?

[tbone]

Do you think the wording, “…will continue through its planned product lifecycle,” like the Escape and Corsair for example, gives them the flexibility to extend the life of the product and not replace it with an EV until it’s determined to be the appropriate time?   That wording is vague to me. 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

Agreed - seems like something's missing - maybe it'll be a "surprise, look what we're adding" type of thing?

One thing missing is that Mustang 2.3L EB is different and newer than other 2.3L.  I would assume longer-term the newer 2.3L will replace older engine design across all vehicles using 2.3L EB, including hybrids.  I haven’t seen specs on 2.3L Hybrid so don’t know which version it uses.