New Leader Shifts Lincoln's EV Plans - Lincoln is Expected to Discontinue Gasoline Versions of the Corsair and Aviator, While Its First EV, a Three-Row Crossover, is Expected in Late 2025

[silvrsvt]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:51 AM, Oacjay98 said:

What do you mean issues in styling clinics?? Maybe it’s ugly and they had to change the styling lol.

Apparently they didn't like the styling on it and I'm not sure how much they can change or what they can change to make it look better. 

 

 

13 hours ago, AM222 said:

Assuming they sort out all the additional transportation-related carbon emissions, they still have a charging infrastructure issue and battery packs are still expensive.
Early adopters obviously either have access to public chargers or live in a house with a home charger. In reality, there are many people who live in apartments in areas that still don't have a proper charging infrastructure. 

 

Battery pack pricing should drop in the next five years with all the additional battery plants coming online and different styles of batteries no using or not using as much rare earth materials. 

as for the charging build out:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/15/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-new-standards-and-major-progress-for-a-made-in-america-national-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/

ACCESSIBLE, RELIABLE, CONVENIENT, USER-FRIENDLY EV CHARGING NETWORK

To ensure ready access to charging and spur good manufacturing jobs at home, President Biden has publicly committed to building out a convenient, reliable, and user-friendly national network of 500,000 EV chargers by 2030.  In support of this vision, the Department of Transportation announced the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure program (NEVI), a $5 billion initiative to create a coast-to-coast network of electric vehicle chargers focused on major highways that support the majority of long-distance trips.  This national network will give drivers confidence they can always find a place to charge, jump start private investment in charging infrastructure and electric vehicles, and support the President’s goal of at least 50% of vehicle sales to be electric by 2030.

Today, FHWA, with support from the Joint Office, unveiled new national standards for federally funded EV chargers, including NEVI-funded chargers. All 50 states, Washington DC, and Puerto Rico are participating in the NEVI program and initial investments will electrify over 75,000 miles of the national highway system. These standards will direct federal dollars to build out a national EV charging network that is user-friendly, reliable, and accessible so that charging is as easy as filling up at a gas station. Until now, there were no comprehensive standards for the installation, operation, or maintenance of EV charging stations, and disparities exist among EV charging stations in key areas, such as connector types, payment methods, data privacy, speed and power of chargers, reliability, and the overall user experience. A recent survey of EV users reported frustration with chargers that are too slow, too crowded, or that just don’t work. Under FHWA’s new standards, we are fixing this. The standards will ensure that:

• Charging is a predictable and reliable experience, by ensuring that there are consistent plug types, power levels, and a minimum number of chargers capable of supporting drivers’ fast charging needs;
• Chargers are working when drivers need them to, by requiring a 97 percent uptime reliability requirement;
• Drivers can easily find a charger when they need to, by providing publicly accessible data on locations, price, availability, and accessibility through mapping applications;
• Drivers do not have to use multiple apps and accounts to charge, by requiring that a single method of identification works across all chargers; and,
• Chargers will support drivers’ needs well into the future, by requiring compatibility with forward-looking capabilities like Plug and Charge.

The standards will also help to ensure that these historic investments in EV charging create good-paying jobs and that EV chargers are well-serviced by requiring strong workforce standards such as Registered Apprenticeships and the Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program (EVITP). Through the White House Talent Pipeline Challenge, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) has certified 20,000 electricians through EVITP.

Together, the standards will ensure that chargers operated by different networks operate similarly and provide the traveling public with a predictable EV charging experience – no matter what car you drive or what state you charge in.

ACCELERATING THE BUILDOUT OF EV CHARGING NETWORKS

The Biden-Harris Administration’s actions on EVs have spurred network operators to accelerate the buildout of coast-to-coast EV charging networks. Public dollars will supplement private investment by filling gaps, serving rural and hard to reach locations, and building capacity in communities. Announcements being spotlighted today will add more than 100,000 public chargers available for all EVs, and include:

• Tesla, for the first time, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs, making at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024. The open chargers will be distributed across the United States. They will include at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors to expand freedom of travel for all EVs, and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural locations.  All EV drivers will be able to access these stations using the Tesla app or website. Additionally, Tesla will more than double its full nationwide network of Superchargers, manufactured in Buffalo, New York.
• Hertz and bp are announcing their intention to build out a national network of EV fast charging infrastructure to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles.  Hertz and bp intend to bring charging infrastructure to Hertz locations across America, including major cities such as Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Houston, Miami, New York City, Orlando, Phoenix, San Francisco, and Washington, DC. The charging hubs will serve rideshare and taxi drivers, car rental customers and the general public at high-demand locations, such as airports. A number of installations are expected to include large-scale charging hubs, known as “gigahubs.” bp aims to invest $1 billion in EV charging in the US by 2030. Hertz’s objective is to make one-quarter of its fleet electric by the end of 2024.
• Pilot Company, General Motors, and EVgo have partnered to build a coast-to-coast network of 2,000 high power 350 kW fast chargers at Pilot and Flying J travel centers along American highways. The nationwide network of up to 500 travel centers will enable long distance EV travel by connecting urban and rural communities. Today, the companies are announcing that the first 200+ chargers in this network are expected to be available for use by drivers in 2023.
• TravelCenters of America and Electrify America announced that they will offer electric vehicle charging at select Travel Centers of America and Petro locations, with a goal of installing approximately 1,000 EV chargers at 200 locations along major highways over the next five years.
• Electrify America recently held the official groundbreaking of Electrify America Solar Glow™ 1, the new 75 MW solar PV project in San Bernardino County, CA to help back all energy delivered to EV drivers with renewable energy across more than 800 DC fast charging stations nationwide.  
• Mercedes-Benz, ChargePoint, and MN8 Energy announced a partnership to deploy over 400 charging hubs with more than 2,500 publicly accessible DC fast charging ports across the U.S. and Canada.
• ChargePoint, Volvo Cars, and Starbucks announced a partnership to deploy 60 DC fast chargers at up to 15 locations along the 1,350-mile pilot route between Seattle and Denver to be completed by summer 2023.
• General Motors, in partnership with FLO, has announced a collaborative effort with dealers to install up to 40,000 public Level 2 EV chargers in local communities by 2026 through GM’s Dealer Community Charging Program. The new charging stations will join the GM’s Ultium Charge 360 network, and will be available to all EV drivers.
• Francis Energy, a Tulsa, Oklahoma-based EV charge point operator, is expanding into 40 states in 2023, with plans to install 50,000 EV charging ports by 2030 in partnership with municipalities, auto dealers, Tribal Nations, and private businesses. Currently 75% of Francis Energy’s network is in Justice40 communities.
• Forum Mobility, a zero-emission trucking solutions provider, recently announced a $400 million commitment to deploy over 1,000 DC fast-chargers. The charging infrastructure will serve the thousands of heavy-duty electric trucks projected to begin operating at the San Pedro and Oakland ports in California over the next decade. The community charging depots will create over 600 new union jobs in disadvantaged communities while reducing harmful emissions at the ports and along freight corridors.
• Ford has committed to installing at least one public-facing DC Fast charger with two ports at 1,920 Ford dealerships by January 2024.
• [/qoute}

[Footballfan]

In 2022, Lincoln ranked 8th in luxury car sales- 9th if Tesla is counted as a luxury brand.  In fact the Lexus RS outsold the entire Lincoln brand and the BMW X5 was not too far behind.  At this point, Ford would be better off merging the remaining Lincoln dealers with Ford dealerships if your just going to offer a 3-4 vehicle lineup which includes a Chinese import, and a badge-engineered Expedition. I do not know how much longer Ford can float a dealer network with such a pultry lineup.

[sullynd]

Is it just me or does the new BMW concept look like an 8-bit Lincoln Zephyr?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/02/bmw-vision-neue-klasse-revealed-munich-motor-show/

[Ares]

1 hour ago, sullynd said:

Is it just me or does the new BMW concept look like an 8-bit Lincoln Zephyr?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/02/bmw-vision-neue-klasse-revealed-munich-motor-show/

Absolutely. Even the front end reminds me of the split wing grille Lincoln more than it does BMW’s traditional kidney grille. 

[akirby]

8 hours ago, Footballfan said:

A badge-engineered Expedition.

I agree with the sentiment on dealers but this is a ridiculous statement.  

[ice-capades]

12 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Apparently they didn't like the styling on it and I'm not sure how much they can change or what they can change to make it look better. 

 

 

 

Battery pack pricing should drop in the next five years with all the additional battery plants coming online and different styles of batteries no using or not using as much rare earth materials. 

as for the charging build out:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/15/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-new-standards-and-major-progress-for-a-made-in-america-national-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/
 

 

Ford has committed to installing at least one public-facing DC Fast charger with two ports at 1,920 Ford dealerships by January 2024.

• And it won't be Ford paying for those extra charging ports at dealerships! It'll be another dealership expense mandated by Ford. 

 

 

[joseodiaga4]

20 hours ago, sullynd said:

Is it just me or does the new BMW concept look like an 8-bit Lincoln Zephyr?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/02/bmw-vision-neue-klasse-revealed-munich-motor-show/

agree, and the interior looks like the one in the new Nautilus

[rperez817]

23 hours ago, akirby said:

I agree with the sentiment on dealers but this is a ridiculous statement.  

 

Footballfan's statement that the Lincoln product lineup contains a "badge-engineered Expedition" is 100% correct and has been the case for 25 years.

[twintornados]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:49 AM, Footballfan said:

In 2022, Lincoln ranked 8th in luxury car sales- 9th if Tesla is counted as a luxury brand.  In fact the Lexus RS outsold the entire Lincoln brand and the BMW X5 was not too far behind.  At this point, Ford would be better off merging the remaining Lincoln dealers with Ford dealerships if your just going to offer a 3-4 vehicle lineup which includes a Chinese import, and a badge-engineered Expedition. I do not know how much longer Ford can float a dealer network with such a pultry lineup.

Go ask Stellantis the same question about Dodge.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Footballfan's statement that the Lincoln product lineup contains a "badge-engineered Expedition" is 100% correct and has been the case for 25 years.

Neither one of you seem to know what that term means.

[rperez817]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

Neither one of you seem to know what that term means.

 

There is no misunderstanding on Footballfan's or rperez817's part regarding that term. Wiki Encyclopedia article on badge engineering/rebadging confirms our understanding, and specifically notes Lincoln and Ford full size SUV as examples of badge engineering. Rebadging - Wikipedia

 

 

[akirby]

The actual term “badge engineering” literally means slapping a different badge on the same product.  Fusion/Milan/MKZ are perfect examples as were the early Navigators.  Lincoln stopped badge engineering a decade ago.

[HotRunrGuy]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

The actual term “badge engineering” literally means slapping a different badge on the same product.  Fusion/Milan/MKZ are perfect examples as were the early Navigators.  Lincoln stopped badge engineering a decade ago.

 

With all due respect, that's YOUR definition.  Not every agrees with you, but you are entitled to your opinion. As are the rest of us.

 

HRG

[akirby]

43 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

With all due respect, that's YOUR definition.  Not every agrees with you, but you are entitled to your opinion. As are the rest of us.

 

HRG

It’s the only definition that makes sense compared to platform sharing.  But we’re not going to agree so whatever.

[Footballfan]

3 hours ago, twintornados said:

Go ask Stellantis the same question about Dodge.

You missed my point.  Dodge and Chrysler share showrooms with Jeep and Ram so the cost of keeping those brands is minimal.  But even if they were standalone brands, Dodge sold 190,000 units last year- more than twice as many as Lincoln, and Chrysler with a two vehicle lineup sold 115,000 units.  

[rmc523]

On 9/1/2023 at 8:00 PM, joseodiaga4 said:

 

But the problem is that we are 3 years apart with not a lot of new products until the EVs.

 

 

IMO they could have done both, just as the Escape and BS. Having both options would have been nice

I mean, if they are just going to stay on certain segments, they kinda need a couple of Options en each one. 

 

 

Yeah, the Kia EV9 is quite impressive, Ford should copy the Koreans that seems to have figure it all out. They show the EV9 not long ago and they just presented the EV5. Their product development speed is 100x times better that Ford’s

 

I saw the EV9 over the weekend.  It looked like a good product with some nice features (including heated/cooled 2nd row seats).  It sat lower than I expected it to.  Higher than a Flex, but not tall like an Expedition.

 

On 9/2/2023 at 8:09 AM, sullynd said:

Is it just me or does the new BMW concept look like an 8-bit Lincoln Zephyr?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/02/bmw-vision-neue-klasse-revealed-munich-motor-show/

 

Agreed.....it made me think of the '04 Zephyr concept...

 

On 9/3/2023 at 12:21 PM, HotRunrGuy said:

 

With all due respect, that's YOUR definition.  Not every agrees with you, but you are entitled to your opinion. As are the rest of us.

 

HRG

 

Full on rebadges are like the '05 F-150 and Mark LT, or the original Escalade, which literally slapped a Cadillac logo on the yukon and didn't change a thing.

 

Platform sharing is like the Edge/Nautilus or Explorer/Aviator now - same platform, but completely different shapes.

 

The current Expy/Navigator and the GM triplets are a step between rebadge and platform sharing, where they get unique front/rear treatments, and unique interiors, but otherwise share the same underpinnings and sheetmetal between the ends.

That's the standard in this segment (GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota all do it), and frankly, it'd be a waste of funds to try to completely rebody the same form at that size.  It's the one segment where this approach is acceptable.

[The Handler]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:32 AM, jasonj80 said:

They basically invented the Full Size luxury segment with the Navigator then gave it away to Cadillac. Cadillac didn't have an answer when it launched in 1997 then did a rush job to get the 99 Escalade out which was just a Yukon and a few badges. 

They tried to make the first gen Aviator different but focused on underpinnings to make it different rather than what the customer saw in style. 

There was actually a smaller Lincoln SUV based on the first Escape as well that would have come out in 2003 along with a smaller sedan. 

Some hate Nasser, but he was the last CEO that saw potential in Lincoln. That's why he wanted it in California to escape the BS that was Dearborn. 

 

A rejuvenated Lincoln would have stepped on Jaguar's toes.

[Andrew L]

23 minutes ago, The Handler said:

A rejuvenated Lincoln would have stepped on Jaguar's toes.

 

I honestly think they could have made it work.  Jaguar focusing on old British Luxury while Lincoln focused on American style and luxury from what I remember Jaguar Execs hated that Lincoln had the LS and didn't want to exist and forced Ford to kill the supercharged LSE.  I dont think the LSE would have stepped on the Supercharged S-Type's toes per say since the styling and interior of those 2 sedans were so dramatically different.  But what do I know.

 

On 8/30/2023 at 11:32 AM, jasonj80 said:

They basically invented the Full Size luxury segment with the Navigator then gave it away to Cadillac. Cadillac didn't have an answer when it launched in 1997 then did a rush job to get the 99 Escalade out which was just a Yukon and a few badges. 

They tried to make the first gen Aviator different but focused on underpinnings to make it different rather than what the customer saw in style. 

There was actually a smaller Lincoln SUV based on the first Escape as well that would have come out in 2003 along with a smaller sedan. 

Some hate Nasser, but he was the last CEO that saw potential in Lincoln. That's why he wanted it in California to escape the BS that was Dearborn. 

 

 

I actually didn't know about a Lincoln based Escape back in 2003 or a smaller sedan under the LS.  I am curious to know more if you do know anything else.  Would have been interesting to say the least.

 

Since getting my 04 Aviator I kind of did a deep dive into its differences with the Explorer since I always assumed it was just a rebadge with a Lincoln V8 but I had no idea the suspension got so much more work to make it drive and feel different.  I think Motorweek said it was actually pretty sporty and if the LS were a SUV that would be it.  I am sad it didn't get a 2nd gen.  I know the original plan was the MKX was going to be called Aviator but the name got changed last second to make everything MK-whatever.  There are early shots of the first gen MKX floating around out there with Aviator badging on it from early Ford press releases.

[Oac98]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:39 PM, rmc523 said:

 

I saw the EV9 over the weekend.  It looked like a good product with some nice features (including heated/cooled 2nd row seats).  It sat lower than I expected it to.  Higher than a Flex, but not tall like an Expedition.

 

 

Agreed.....it made me think of the '04 Zephyr concept...

 

 

Full on rebadges are like the '05 F-150 and Mark LT, or the original Escalade, which literally slapped a Cadillac logo on the yukon and didn't change a thing.

 

Platform sharing is like the Edge/Nautilus or Explorer/Aviator now - same platform, but completely different shapes.

 

The current Expy/Navigator and the GM triplets are a step between rebadge and platform sharing, where they get unique front/rear treatments, and unique interiors, but otherwise share the same underpinnings and sheetmetal between the ends.

That's the standard in this segment (GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota all do it), and frankly, it'd be a waste of funds to try to completely rebody the same form at that size.  It's the one segment where this approach is acceptable.

Exactly Edge and Nautilus share a platform with different top hat. Lincoln’s also have heavier parts same as any other Ford Lincoln platform share such as Explorer Aviator. 

[jasonj80]

2 hours ago, The Handler said:

A rejuvenated Lincoln would have stepped on Jaguar's toes.

That wasn't a concern, wouldn't make a difference as the sales would still end up at FoMoCo. Sales cannibalization was not a concern at PAG they actually were good with customers having an assortment of PAG vehicles in their driveway. The long goal was Jaguar would be more Benz / Lexus competition and Lincoln would be more BMW/Audi. The LS and the small sedan and then SUV were to have launched Lincoln back into the European market. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Andrew L said:

 

 

Since getting my 04 Aviator I kind of did a deep dive into its differences with the Explorer since I always assumed it was just a rebadge with a Lincoln V8 but I had no idea the suspension got so much more work to make it drive and feel different.  I think Motorweek said it was actually pretty sporty and if the LS were a SUV that would be it.  I am sad it didn't get a 2nd gen.  I know the original plan was the MKX was going to be called Aviator but the name got changed last second to make everything MK-whatever.  There are early shots of the first gen MKX floating around out there with Aviator badging on it from early Ford press releases.

Not a surprise that we bought an 03 Aviator while I still had my 00 LS.  We liked it except for the coil pack that failed but it was under warranty.  I believe that was the Doha 4.6L with more power than the Explorer or mountaineer.

[DeluxeStang]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:12 PM, Footballfan said:

You missed my point.  Dodge and Chrysler share showrooms with Jeep and Ram so the cost of keeping those brands is minimal.  But even if they were standalone brands, Dodge sold 190,000 units last year- more than twice as many as Lincoln, and Chrysler with a two vehicle lineup sold 115,000 units.  

190,000 units for a mainstream brand is kinda pathetic. Luxury brands sell in lower volumes than most mainstream brands for obvious reasons. Didn't Ford sell something like 4 million cars worldwide last year? Ford and Dodge used to be head to head decades ago, and now Ford is outselling Dodge 20 to 1. That's incredible, I didn't realize you could run a brand into the ground that quickly. 

[Footballfan]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

190,000 units for a mainstream brand is kinda pathetic. Luxury brands sell in lower volumes than most mainstream brands for obvious reasons. Didn't Ford sell something like 4 million cars worldwide last year? Ford and Dodge used to be head to head decades ago, and now Ford is outselling Dodge 20 to 1. That's incredible, I didn't realize you could run a brand into the ground that quickly. 

Dodge really never came close to Ford's numbers.  Up until 1973, the Plymouth Division used to be more of a competitor to the Ford brand.  This was before trucks displaced passenger cars as the dominant sales vehicles for the company.  Dodge was more of a competitor to Mercury.

 

As part of Stellantis' portfolio, Dodge serves a niche without adding any brick and mortar. Also remember that Ram replaced Dodge Truck.  Adding Ram to Dodge would give Dodge probably 750,000 sales.   Remember Ford is trying to float an entire dealer network with Lincoln.  It was feasible when Mercury was shared with Lincoln showrooms, but that is no longer the case.  Merging Ford and Lincoln stores would potentially drive more sales for both brands. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Footballfan
Spelling

[DeluxeStang]

52 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Dodge really never came close to Ford's numbers.  Up until 1973, the Plymouth Division used to be more of a competitor to the Ford brand.  This was before trucks displaced passenger cars as the dominant sales vehicles for the company.  Dodge was more of a competitor to Mercury.

 

As part of Stellantis' portfolio, Dodge serves a niche without adding any brick and mortar. Also remember that Ram replaced Dodge Truck.  Adding Ram to Dodge would give Dodge probably 750,000 sales.   Remember Ford is trying to float an entire dealer network with Lincoln.  It was feasible when Mercury was shared with Lincoln showrooms, but that is no longer the case.  Merging Ford and Lincoln stores would potentially drive more sales for both brands. 

Yeah, and Plymouth went out of business due to low sales. The point still stands. 

[jpd80]

On 9/4/2023 at 2:16 AM, akirby said:

The actual term “badge engineering” literally means slapping a different badge on the same product.  Fusion/Milan/MKZ are perfect examples as were the early Navigators.  Lincoln stopped badge engineering a decade ago.

To me, the difference was that Lincoln May have shared concealed things on a shard platform but the sheet metal was definitely different while Mercury got at best different nose and tail treatment - understandable sure to the closeness in price to the Ford progenitor.

 

If anything, GM  was guilty of more badge engineering in the 70s and 80s, treating its various brands more like trim levels of near similar vehicles. Having said that, later Buicks were given different sheet metal over what similar Chevrolets had while Cadillac got even more love with either bespoke platforms of significantly altered vehicles on shared platforms…..

 

While Buick had different sheet metal like Lincoln it had a less premium feel compared to Lincoln which constantly aspired Cadillac levels of luxury.

Edited September 7, 2023 by jpd80